To Add Alternate Or Not.

[Duster41]

Would like a little input on a scenario:
Say your release shows the wx at destination is 3sm ovc250. The taf shows this until 1 1/2 hours after your scheduled E.T.A. then it goes down to -shsn 1sm ovc150 for the next 2 hours. You push the gate and wait in the Deice line. You are number 2 in the line after waiting 40 minutes for deicing. You have a full load and max out with weight. The deice truck breaks and they close the deice pad. you will taxi over to another deice pad to deice and they let you up front. In the meantime the Taf amended and now the -shsn 1 sm is forecasted at ETA. Do you add alternate and bump pax or do you continue on since you already pushed from the gate.

 

[IFlyFL410]

First off, would you feel comfortable as a pilot getting to your destination, going missed, then not having the fuel to get somewhere else, just because you didn't want to go back to the gate??? Based on that, I would return for more fuel. Legally, though, I think you can still go since the dispatch and release are for "planning" purposes only, right? Once you're off the gate, it's as if you're already airborne.

 

[Duster41]

I see your point. But I would already have cont fuel on board. Say 1000lbs.Then would you go back to the gate?

 

[IFlyFL410]

If you think that is enough to get you from the missed approach and on to somewhere else where you can get in, I guess so!?!?

 

[MaceyHold]

don't come back to the gate to get more gas and potentially bump people. how about let the flight depart without the alternate, but if the weather begins to drop enroute, make a fuel stop. Make sure you and captain agree to this plan before actually departing though. if you have to stop, you will certainly inconvenience some folks, but at least they will get to where they are going instead of sitting around the departure airport for several hours waiting to be re-routed...of course this all assumes the en-route wx allows for this.

 

[A350]

This is a sticky scenario.....

If the wx at the destination goes below forecast and an alternate is required, then you have to add the alternate, especially if you are already in the air.

If you are on the ground, the regulations require that you have enough fuel to get where you are going, go to any required alternate, and then 45 minutes taking into account any known delays and weather conditions.

Although you were already dispatched, if the conditions that make up the dispatch release change, then you should amend the release. If you don't have the fuel, then you can stop enroute for more or RTG and get more.

I don't think you have much of a choice here.

A350

 

[Blucher]

This requires you to ask yourself and your fellow pilot several questions:

1) Do you feel lucky?
2) WWJD?
3) How well does your aircraft glide?
4) How does your dispatcher feel about it?
5) What are your outs if the weather further deteriorates?
6) Are you in contract negotiations?
7) If a train leaves NY at 7 am and a train leaves Chicago at 8 am....?
8) Ever dance with the Devil in the pale moonlight?
9) What are the risks? (perhaps get your own "Seconds from Disaster" special)
10) What are the rewards? (get to come back tomorrow and do it again)

Flying is just like painting a floor: always have a way out.
"When in doubt, put the danged fire out!" (aka: shut it down and think it over, Skippy)

-Blucher

 

[Mike man]

15000 Overcast? Whats the big deal?

And since you have "left" for your destination why would you go back to the gate with full boat of PAX and make 5 or more get off so you can have 1000 lbs of extra gas...just go and be happy.

Next question...
1600RVR takeoff:
Winds calm, runway 27 in use (rollout RVR 1600), vis 1/8mile
Can you switch and use 9?

 

[Camembert]

Next question...
1600RVR takeoff:
Winds calm, runway 27 in use (rollout RVR 1600), vis 1/8mile
Can you switch and use 9?

Air France would.

 

[A350]

Mike:

This is no difference than leaving the gate and losing an air conditioning pack...so you must fly at a lower altitude. If you don't have the fuel to complete the flight, you must get more or be re-dispatched to a fuel stop. It would require an amendment.

The visibility is the problem in the original scenario.

In your RVR scenario, if you are saying the rollout for 27 is 1600 (and that is the touchdown RVR for runway 9), then yes, switch and use 9 because you can't leave with 1/8SM and no RVR on 27. This assumes you can legally use 9 considering climb gradients, and that 9 can be used with 1/4 SM or 1600 RVR.

A350

 

[buscap]

black and white

As I see it, at my ATL based regional airline, once you become AWARE of the new forecast the crew and dispatcher are jointly responsible for deciding whether to continue without an alternate. This is one of those things...if it has a positive outcome, great. If you end up declaring an emergency or worse, well then....you ffffff'd up. Simple as that.

Fact is, the addition of the alternate is not required after takeoff under those circumstances. After pushback, until takeoff, is a gray area. If the takeoff is unexpectedly delayed, but it puts you into a previously-known-alternate-requiring-weather forcast, I would say you now need the alternate to be legal. It'ss one of those "we gotta be wheels up by this time to be legal"

Now....if a required alternate is on a release, and you become aware that the alternate forecast weather goes below minimums after takeoff, you may not continue to the destination without amending the release with a new legal alternate.

Don't look for black and white here. There ain't much.

Just fly as if it's your favorite grandma in the back. Not the smelly one who knitted the sweater-vest that got your butt kicked in the third grade.

By the way...whimps live longer in this business.