Timing a localizer approach

[midlifeflyer]

he seems to me to be referring to NDB approaches where "the procedure is in the database" but there is no overlay. My point was this: If the NDB approach is in the GPS database (not just the NDB position) that *IS* an overlay, there's no such thing as an approach that is in the database, but there is no overlay. That's what an overlay *is* a procedure based on another navaid which is in the GPS database as a selectable approach procedure.

Wait. Let's makes sure that we're on the same page. There are approaches in the database that are not usable overlays. Load an ILS or LOC approach into the GPS. It's there, complete with magenta line, fixes and a nice drawing of the missed hold. But it also has a nice click-through warning that it is not to be used for primary navigation. The same will be true for an NDB approach that is not an NDB or GPS overlay, but is nevertheless in the database.

(Is there something here that is unit specific? Like a sophisticated GPS that removed all the "situational awareness only approaches" so that the only approaches in the database are ones where the GPS could be used for primary navigation?)

 

[A Squared]

Wait. Let's makes sure that we're on the same page. There are approaches in the database that are not usable overlays. Load an ILS or LOC approach into the GPS. It's there, complete with magenta line, fixes and a nice drawing of the missed hold. But it also has a nice click-through warning that it is not to be used for primary navigation. The same will be true for an NDB approach that is not an NDB or GPS overlay, but is nevertheless in the database.

(Is there something here that is unit specific? Like a sophisticated GPS that removed all the "situational awareness only approaches" so that the only approaches in the database are ones where the GPS could be used for primary navigation?)

Oh, ok. I guess that's shows the limits of my experience. All the approach approved GPS receivers I've used don't have the "situational awareness", "for informational purposes only" things in the database. Either it's an approved GPS procedure, or it's not in the database. Well, if that's what minitour referring to, the "for informational purposes only" data I'll confess to still being mystified. Essentially, we can restate the question as: Why can't we use unapproved data to fly an approach ? The answer to that seems obvious.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Oh, ok. I guess that's shows the limits of my experience. All the approach approved GPS receivers I've used don't have the "situational awareness", "for informational purposes only" things in the database. Either it's an approved GPS procedure, or it's not in the database.

FYI,here's a link to the GNS430 Quick Reference Guide

http://www.garmin.com/manuals/GNS430_QuickReferenceGuide.pdf

You'll find a sample of the Garmin warning for this unit on page 19 with a brief explanation below it.

 

[PURPLEHAZE21]

Murphys Law states...well we know. Just do both and keep a cross check.

P.S. To save room on certain UNS systems, certain approaches are removed or not put in the data base. Usually the NDB is the first to go. Found out the hard way. Good Luck !!!!!!

 

[PositionandHold]

I tested a few VOR approaches into our local airport here and one back in California where I initially trained. One had a hill a few miles east of the field. On a VFR-Clear day, I shut off the GPS and shot the approach with only a timer and the CDI. I had no up to the second wind information, so unless I continued to query ATC as to my groundspeed, I had to rely on my airspeed corrected for the wind report I got on the ATIS and winds aloft data.

Turned out the tailwinds were stronger than reported that day and had I followed my timer to a tee, I'd have ended up way past the runway and not far from the hill.

Lesson learned, if I don't have the GPS, I always cross check the MAP with another VOR, at least something (could be as rudimentary as drawing a line from another local VOR and using that as a reference). At least the GPS gives a groundspeed readout. Especially in those non-radar environments.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I tested a few VOR approaches into our local airport here and one back in California where I initially trained. One had a hill a few miles east of the field. On a VFR-Clear day, I shut off the GPS and shot the approach with only a timer and the CDI. I had no up to the second wind information, so unless I continued to query ATC as to my groundspeed, I had to rely on my airspeed corrected for the wind report I got on the ATIS and winds aloft data.

Turned out the tailwinds were stronger than reported that day and had I followed my timer to a tee, I'd have ended up way past the runway and not far from the hill.

What kind of clearance would you have had from the hill (if any) had you initiated a 200 ft/mile climb from your timed missed approach point?

Also, were the winds substantially different than forecast at your enroute altitude, or just at the altitudes you were at on the approach?

Fly safe!

David

 

[PositionandHold]

What kind of clearance would you have had from the hill (if any) had you initiated a 200 ft/mile climb from your timed missed approach point?

Also, were the winds substantially different than forecast at your enroute altitude, or just at the altitudes you were at on the approach?

Fly safe!

David

I should have done it more scientifically, but I just flew it, came down, and shrugged my shoulders. I never calculated what the winds probably were. I just know that the stopwatch would have taken me past the runway by a non-trivial amount. The MAProcedure would have certainly cleared any obstruction there because the FACourse was perpendicular to the runway and the MAP course involved a turn away from any hill.

My basic point of advice was that if you're going to do a NP approach with no GPS or DME and you're in an area with noteworthy obstructions, use something other than the stopwatch to back yourself up, because those times are never on the dime, and sometimes a bit more than a trivial amount from the dime.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I should have done it more scientifically, but I just flew it, came down, and shrugged my shoulders. I never calculated what the winds probably were. I just know that the stopwatch would have taken me past the runway by a non-trivial amount. The MAProcedure would have certainly cleared any obstruction there because the FACourse was perpendicular to the runway and the MAP course involved a turn away from any hill.

My basic point of advice was that if you're going to do a NP approach with no GPS or DME and you're in an area with noteworthy obstructions, use something other than the stopwatch to back yourself up, because those times are never on the dime, and sometimes a bit more than a trivial amount from the dime.

The point I was trying to make is that a certain amount of error in groundspeed is taken into account when designing these approaches. Sounds like, even with what you considered a substantial error in your time calculations due to unforecast winds, the procedure itself would still have kept you safe. No additional equipment required.

Don't get me wrong...I'm all for backup and verification where possible. Sometimes it's not possible, however, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the procedure can't be done safely.

Fly safe!

David

 

[ksu_aviator]

What I was getting at is that a complete GPS failure, without any of the other avionics failing, is highly unlikely. Even with a RAIM message, your position should be fairly accurate, albeit not within standards. While timing a LOC approach is not as ridiculous as timing an ILS, I am still going to stick with my answer.

Regards,
Devil's advocate

Ok, my initial reaction, after reading, this was anger. But I've calmed down now and I'm going to explain why this statement is dangerous.

RAIM means that the instrument is not working properly. A RAIM message is no different than a NAV flag or Attitude Indicator flag. Going back to steam gauges for a minute, you wouldn't follow a flagged attitude indicator over a working turn coordinator right? Even though the attitude indicator works better normally, once the flag comes out it might as well have tumbled.

The same is true for GPS. RAIM generally means you have at least one less satellite than is required for accurate navigation. The errors can be small or large. You don't know. By far and away, timing is more reliable than a GPS with a RAIM message. I've timed many many approaches, the timing is always accurate if done properly.

The idea that you would rely on a knowingly bad instrument over a perfectly good instrument because "it is probably right" is dangerously stupid.

BTW...time the ILS...then you'll know when to go missed if the glide slope goes bad.

 

[toflyseeme]

Timing the inbound on an ILS from the FAF to the MAP is a great training maneuver and doesn't cost the pilot one thin dime, and if apilot elects to do it that's o.k. with me. However, in the real world of my flying I've never ever had the g/s go belly up on me inside the OM. Perhaps I've been lucky, but in running this scenario past hundreds of professional pilots I've never met one that calculated the time. Maybe they were all just lucky too, but in the real world of flying it's rarely done

 

[gsrcrsx68]

The guy I did my instrument with taught me I could descend to DH, then fly along until the timer expired...

I never bought it, but I think he still teaches it the same.

 

[FL420]

The guy I did my instrument with taught me I could descend to DH, then fly along until the timer expired....

I suggest you dig into the books and look up the definitions of Minimum Descent Altitude(MDA,) Decision Altitude(DA) and Decision Height(DH.)

I never bought it, but I think he still teaches it the same.

Why not? That's the way it's done. Again, I suggest a little IFR refresher is in order.

 

[gsrcrsx68]

Yeah one of us needs a refresher. I'll stand by what I said. DH and DA are both specific to an ILS. So I suggest you dust off one of your books and read it for yourself.

 

[FL420]

Yeah one of us needs a refresher. I'll stand by what I said. DH and DA are both specific to an ILS. So I suggest you dust off one of your books and read it for yourself.

Fair enough. I dusted off the books and this is what I came up with:

from FAA-H-8261-1 Instrument Procedures Handbook

from Appendix D
Decision Altitude (DA) –A specified altitude in the precision approach at which a missed approach must be initiated if the required visual reference to continue the approach has not been established. The term “Decision Altitude (DA)” is referenced to mean sea level and the term “Decision Height (DH)” is referenced to the threshold elevation. Even though DH is charted as an altitude above MSL, the U.S. has adopted the term “DA” as a step toward harmonization of the United States and international terminology. At some point, DA will be published for all future instrument approach procedures with vertical guidance.

Decision Height (DH) – See Decision Altitude

from Chapter 5
MINIMUM DESCENT ALTITUDE, DECISION ALTITUDE, AND DECISION HEIGHT
DA is currently used on RNAV approach charts with vertical descent guidance. DA will replace DH for Category I precision IAPs. MDA and DA are referenced to MSL and measured with a barometric altimeter. CAT II and III approach DHs are referenced to AGL and measured with a radio altimeter.

So. Unless you and your aircraft are current and qualified to shoot CAT II or III approaches, you can eliminate the term Decision Height(DH) from your vocabulary. If you are shooting a Cat I precision approach(PAR, ILS, TLS and eventually LPV and LNAV/VNAV down to 200' HAT and ½ sm visibility) you will be using a Decision Altitude(DA) for your minimums. DHs are heights based on radar altimeters and DAs are altitudes based on barometric altimeters.

The original poster's question was regarding shooting a localizer approach using timing to determine the MAP. If a pilot knows he is going to shoot a non-precision Category I localizer approach and the IAP calls for timing to determine the MAP, that is what he must use. Furthermore, he cannot descend to the ILS DA and then drive to the MAP. He must go no lower than the published MDA then drive to the MAP(assuming he never sees the runway environment soon enough to make a safe and stabilized descent to land.)

If the pilot is shooting an ILS and loses a reliable GS indication after passing the FAF and the MAP for the localizer only approach can only be determined by timing, he should have started his timing passing the FAF because otherwise, he has no way of knowing where his MAP is. It can't be at the DA because he can't continue below the MDA without a valid glideslope signal.

Some commercial operators don't allow their pilots to revert to a localizer only approach after losing the GS signal inside the FAF. They are required to immediately execute a MA, rebrief for a localizer approach and come back and try it again, weather permitting. Some companies allow crews to revert to localizer only if they have specifically briefed both approaches as a contingency.

 

[gsrcrsx68]

<<The original poster's question was regarding shooting a localizer approach using timing to determine the MAP.>>
Well ok, but my comment didn't address his comment.

<<He must go no lower than the published MDA then drive to the MAP>>
That was my point. You can't go to DH or DA and drive along at all. The MAP for the ILS is on glide slope at DA(or DH, true, not good of me to interchange those).

So are you taking back you initial response to me?

 

[EA6BDriver]

Intersting and educational discussion.

I tend to agree with x68 on this. Why oh why would anybody teach to ignore that whole "precision" part of a precision approach by jumping right on down to DA and driving in straight and level for x distance?

Isn't "Decision Altitude", as its name implies, the time you need to decide to go missed? And if you're already at that altitude well prior to when you'd have been there had you followed that pesky glideslope needle, then when do you go missed?

Then again, I could be all wrong...

 

[FL420]

So are you taking back you initial response to me? [/FONT]

Okay. You obviously don't need any recurrent instrument training and probably never will.

 

[PURPLEHAZE21]

Guys,

This timing a Localizer with a clock or using GPS as backup is way out of control. Since the 30's guys shot NDB's with an ADF and Clock. They survived. It's a non-precision. The name implies it is not as accurate as a Precision. If you don't have the mental capacity to do or use both...then get out of the cockpit.

 

[maverick121]

Guys,

This timing a Localizer with a clock or using GPS as backup is way out of control. Since the 30's guys shot NDB's with an ADF and Clock. They survived. It's a non-precision. The name implies it is not as accurate as a Precision. If you don't have the mental capacity to do or use both...then get out of the cockpit.

Thank you, amen!!