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blueridge71

Outlasted two companies
Joined
Nov 30, 2003
Posts
2,261
With the news of Express Jet's loss of flying and probable furloughs this, the regional airline industry continued its downward spiral.

Employees at several different companies have tried to stop the race to the bottom unsuccessfully. Comair struck to get a new and better contract. Mesaba almost struck. Express Jet endured long hard negotiations. ACA resisted UAL/Bain's calls for huge concessions. All of those companies are now in decline or bankrupt.

What can be done? Every time a pilot group says "enough!," another company and another pilot group cuts them off at the knees.

I can see only two steps that will stop the decline. If you can see another way, I'd be glad to hear it.

First, all regional pilots need to be on a single national seniority list. If we can retain seniority after furlough the companies will not be able to restart us on a year 1 "food stamp" pay scale and therefore, labor will not be as cheap when they furlough and rehire experienced pilots.

By making the list for regional pilots only, we should sidestep a lot of opposition from major pilots who don't want to step back to a regional if they are furloughed.

If a regional pilot were furloughed, the system would work like a skilled trades union in many areas. Furloughed pilots would go in line based on furlough date for the first regional job that came open. If they didn't want that job (for instance, if it wasn't commutable), then they could defer to the next person in line. Once hired they would retain their original hire date for pay, but would get a new one for bidding.

Second, we need to set a minimum union wage across the board for regional pilots. The wage could be based on a aircraft type, but must contain a hard minimum that would enable pilots and their families to survive. I recommend $30,000 or $30 per hour as a starting wage.

These changes could be negotiated, along with minimum quality of life standards, as every ALPA regional contract comes up for renewal. If the airlines pay the same, then they can't come to labor looking to cut costs so that we can cut the throat of our union brothers.

Guys and gals, the good regional jobs are disappearing quickly. My company, ASA, is about to take a strike ballot. I'm sure that we'll get a new contract, but what will protect us after that?

The company is already saying that we are in a "cost box" where we have to be among the cheapest DCI carriers to maintain our contract. Our competition will be Mesa, Chataco, and Comair after court imposed or negotiated pay cuts. Customer service and performance mean nothing! Low price is everything! Welcome to the Wal-Mart of the Skies (apologies to Wal-Mart)!

If we continue to do business as usual, we'll all be working for $10,000 per year like the new Mesaba FOs. Qualified pilots are already getting hard to find, hence ASA's new 600/100 requirements. Now is the time to take a stand and make some changes. Let's make our union earn that 1.9%.

If anyone has a better idea, I'd love to hear it. Something has to be done or the jobs here will be more stable than a regional airline pilot position.
http://www.usajobs.opm.gov/sofia.asp
 
blueridge71 said:
First, all regional pilots need to be on a single national seniority list. If we can retain seniority after furlough the companies will not be able to restart us on a year 1 "food stamp" pay scale and therefore, labor will not be as cheap when they furlough and rehire experienced pilots.

By making the list for regional pilots only, we should sidestep a lot of opposition from major pilots who don't want to step back to a regional if they are furloughed.

If a regional pilot were furloughed, the system would work like a skilled trades union in many areas. Furloughed pilots would go in line based on furlough date for the first regional job that came open. If they didn't want that job (for instance, if it wasn't commutable), then they could defer to the next person in line. Once hired they would retain their original hire date for pay, but would get a new one for bidding.

In addition, we should all get our own personal T38 just like NASA pilots and a brand new car as a signing bonus for working at the airline.....Oh, and no matter how bad we are, Santa should still bring us toys for christmas.

Ok, Now, back to reality. In dreamland, what you are saying would be nice...but not possible. There is no way to do this.
 
Last edited:
FL990 said:
In addition, we should all get our own personal T38 just like NASA pilots and a brand new car as a signing bonus for working at the airline.....Oh, and no matter how bad we are, Santa should still bring us toys for christmas.

Ok, Now, back to reality. In dreamland, what you are saying would be nice...but not possible. There is no way to do this.
As long as there are morons like you,the slide will never stop. Now quick go play on your playstation in your parents basement, while you can still afford new games.
Putz
PBR
 
Is it really necessary to re copy the ENTIRE LONG thread?

Everyone who does this PLEASE quit!!!
 
FL990 said:
Ok, Now, back to reality. In dreamland, what you are saying would be nice...but not possible. There is no way to do this.

I never said it would be easy. It would take years to get the language in every company's contracts.

Like I said, if you have a better idea, I'm all ears. Or you can just whistle past the graveyard while the regional world tumbles around you.
 
PBRstreetgang said:
As long as there are morons like you,the slide will never stop. Now quick go play on your playstation in your parents basement, while you can still afford new games.
Putz
PBR

ok, go back and read my quote now...I have modified it to reflect the part that I was making fun of. When you start out a post with something that far fetched and impossible, one has a tendency to stop reading and assume that the entire post is moronic.

The rest of it was not so bad, but still impossible. No union will ever have the power to set wages for all companies and no company will give them this power.

In terms of me in my parents basement playing play station or whatever the heck you said...lol. READ MY OTHER POSTS. You will get a clear picture of where I stand. I have said it many times on those. I have been in this industry for quite a few years now. I am in high opposition of the "race to the bottom" concept. .

If MGMT is lying or not is no difference to me. I say shut them down if they can't pay us a fair wage. If they can't find a way to afford to pay us, they don't (ASA) need to be in business. I would rather see them go away than become another mesa or CHQ. The industry doesn't need that.
 
I believe it was Shakespeare who said, "First, burn all the flight schools."
 
Nothing is completely far fetched or impossible unless you make it so in your limited view of what is possible. There was a time when everyone "knew" the world was flat, do you think people a hundred years ago could fathom that one day everyone could talk on portable devices you carry on your hip to anyone else on the whole planet, do you think the slaves ever thought they would be free?

What is being suggested here is monumental in scope, sure, but not impossible by any means. I don't know how to get this done, but I have the passion and drive to do the leg work if someone much smarter than me can get us started in the right direction. All of the regional pilots have to be pissed off enough to stick together and form a totally new, national union strictly for regional airlines. It could happen.
 
Not practical. All the different companies' labor contracts come up for renewal at different times. Unless all the regional unions got together and decided to wildcat strike (illegal, BTW) then you're pissin' in the wind. The vast majority have to be willing to walk away from the profession in order to have any power. Given the slim economic margins that many regional pilots have personally, that's not going to happen. The companies know they have regional pilots by the short-hairs. They know that they're all talk.
 
A national seniority list is not legal, nor will it ever happen. The problems going on right now are because of lack of brand scope. Your company can hire whomever they want because you have a contract that allows outsourcing. Here at NWA mainline, if newco comes and it's not NWA pilots, we are shutting the place down. Do you have that kind of levelrage at XJT. Why aren't the pilots there saying mesa or whomever can come in, but it will be XJT pilots. All XJT pilots should be CO pilots, then when they say 69 aircraft are being outsourced, you shut the entire airline down. In that senario, CO has lost all abilty to screw you guys.
 
Management has the situation exactly the way they want it. Do you think it is a coincidence that any regional pilot group who has put up a fight, is being chopped up and thrown away. Comair, ACA/Indy, Mesabe, XJT are all examples. And as long as pilots are willing to go to Mesa, CHQ, PCL then management is getting exactly what it wants. Quality of service doesn't matter anymore, thank you SWA, only the quantity at a low price. The theory, Blueridge, is good, but will never happen because the 1000 hour wonders have the SJS, a disease that will never be eliminated.
 
Draginass said:
Not practical. All the different companies' labor contracts come up for renewal at different times. Unless all the regional unions got together and decided to wildcat strike (illegal, BTW) then you're pissin' in the wind. The vast majority have to be willing to walk away from the profession in order to have any power. Given the slim economic margins that many regional pilots have personally, that's not going to happen. The companies know they have regional pilots by the short-hairs. They know that they're all talk.

Sorry for quoting the whole post. Had to. I agree with the first two words. After that, courses diverge.

If the regional pilots really wanted to form a single nationwide union it could theoretically be done rather easily and in a relatively short period of time. Under the RLA a union can be decertified and immediately replaced with another. While this would void most if not all contracts, the company cannot change the terms of the voided contract without going through the "section 6" procedure of the RLA. All work rules and pay would remain unchanged while a new contract was negotiated.

The part where it becomes impractical is the coordination that would be required to get all the regional pilot groups to decertify their respective unions simultaneously and replace them with a single entity. Everyone is too busy doing management's work for them (i.e. being their tool) by perpetuating the warfare between competing "working girls" to take the initiative, not to mention the responsibility to improve conditions for us all.
 
DrProc said:
. Quality of service doesn't matter anymore, thank you SWA, only the quantity at a low price.

Interesting quote would that be the same SWA that ranks one of the highest in ON time performance lowest customer complaints. Plus offers more than most legacy carriers to its customers plus has the highest paid pilots for that equipment. While keeping their operating cost low.
Legacy carriers blame two groups for their problems low cost carriers and over paid employees they never blame there own managerial incompetence.
 

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