Time for ALPA to split?

[mesapilot]

I've recently come to realization that the best thing for the pilot profession is for ALPA to split. It is not that ALPA is a bad organization, it is because I don't see how a union can fairly represent a major airline pilot who is being outsourced and a regional pilot who is drooling over the opportunity to take over the position. Before anybody asks, I am not a RJDC fan. Actually, I am a recycled major airline guy who has seen both sides. We are being pitted against one another now more than ever. Wages and work rules will only slide even more in the next few years. When another Comair tries to push the bar up, it will be smashed and replaced by the next cheapest alternative.

To all who work at a regional and look forward to a quick upgrade and the possibility of flying bigger and bigger "small" jets, your exuberance will be short lived. The only reason you are in that position is because you are working for slave wages. The only reason you will lose it is because another pilot clueless to the history of airline labor is willing to work less than you. I am not calling anyone a scab here, however, the mentality is thriving - and my union is silent. One seniority list for all.

Disgruntled ALPA member

 

[Typhoon1244]

Suppose us regional guys split off from ALPA and formed a "Regional Airline Pilots Association" (RAPA). Our young union would have to contend with ALPA's larger membership, larger reputation, and larger wallet. Contract negotiations at regionals would turn into slaughters. Before you know it, the nations RJ's would be full of furloughed mainline pilots, and I and my fellow regional guys would be on the street...probably not seeing well-paying airline jobs before we hit age sixty.

At least with ALPA we have some chance at meaningful representation, even if it is biased.

I agree that regional airline wages are upsetting the natural order of things. What should we do? Put mainline guys in RJ's, pay them $100/ or $150/hour, and go out of business?

I don't know what the answer is, but I do know that I'd rather be a $65/hour CRJ captain than a clerk at RadioShack. (Of course, I'd much rather be a $250/hour 757 captain...) Selfish and simple-minded? Maybe. I guess we're all victims of the fact that we love to fly.

 

[mesapilot]

I agree with you, I don't want to see anybody lose their job.

However, I was referring to major airline unions splitting off from ALPA not the other way around.

One seniority list for all. No more whipsawing.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Mesa Pilot :

Why aren't you an RJDC fan? Is your preference to see ALPA split and destroyed?

The RJDC is trying to make ALPA abide by its own rules regarding alter ego air carriers, acquisitions and mergers. Even the Judge in the RJDC litigation pointed out that ALPA was arguing against collective bargaining and he thought that was a strange position for a union to take.

What has destroyed ALPA is not the regional jet, or the pilots who fly them. ALPA was the author of its own demise when it allowed the big MEC's to hijack the union for their own predatory purposes.

Our union used to often quote the phrase that getting better contracts was like "jacking up the house one corner at a time." But, in the 90's you had a few MEC's who felt they could better run the union and they changed the Executive Vice President structure to ensure pilots at the non preferred airlines would never be able to have any input in ALPA National's direction.

The best way to achieve no more whipsawing is to have a strong union. Breaking up ALPA will not achieve your goal. Fixing ALPA, as the RJDC is attempting to do, takes you closer to what you want.

Best regards,
~~~^~~~

 

[Foobar]

Interestingly, in some of my master's management classes we discussed that large organizations do not evolve. They stagnate as the world changes. IBM did this and nearly went out of business. Then what happens is the large organization, now on its death bed resulting from a failure to see changes will undergo a radical set of changes designed to fix everything. These radical changes do address the problem which is in a nutshell, the organization won’t adapt to changes over time.

I think ALPA will follow suit. ALPA will go down in flames from a failure to recognize changes in the industry. Just before the ship is sunk they will perform a radical re-invention of the organization and its likely that won’t help anyone. I don’t know a whole lot about the industry but what I do see tells me that ALPA has failed 100% in evolving with the airline industry.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Time for ALPA to split? Some would contend that it already has. Actually it has been tried before. Almost 25 years ago, right after airline deregualation, ALPA established a sister union for those upstart "commuter guys" called UPA, the Union of Professional Airmen.

After a short while ALPA realized this was not such a fantabulous idea. No longer were regional pilots beholden ie under the thumb, of its parent union. Significant job actions, read strikes, proved that.

You wont find much of that written in Flying The Line Part II. There is only one passing reference on one page in the entire book.

No, ALPA labels itself as "The Pilots' Union." Splitting off the fastest growing segment of its membership is the last thing they would want to do these days in their feeble financial postion.

 

[pjjim]

Former member of UPA

As a former UPA Member that is not correct, and for the record Flying the Line is NOT THE HOLY BIBLE!!!!!!!!

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Yes, ALPA will split. The majors will leave and take their dues with them. AMR, UAL, DAL, NWA, AAA, FedEx, and UPS, along with others will likely form their own union down the road. They will take with them the bargaining rights with the major airlines. The rest of the industry will be thrown to the wolves, and Mr. Ford will see exactly what his efforts accomplished: ruining the careers of pilots at Comair, ASA, and the rest of the regional industry who will not be able to stop the race to the bottom. Hopefully, I will have moved on by then. Thanks RJDC.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Pjjim, those were sentiments right from the source, UPA leadership. Were you? No, Flying The Line is not the Bible, but it is the official history of ALPA. Check out the copyright of Part II, it is not by author George Hopkins, it is by the Air Line Pilots Association. What is or is not in it may not be true but it is OFFICIAL.

Scope..., taking an argument to the extreme belies your own personnal ambitions. You seem to have this notion that if the regionals roll and take one for the team, that some day in the distant future, mainline pilots out of the kindness of their own hearts bend down from the heavens and bestow you with a mainline seniority number. Hopefully, for our sakes, you will have moved on by then. Ingratiating yourself to mainline interests by bashing your fellow regional pilots and their attempts for fair representation by their own union shows just how (selfishly) "concerned" you really are.

Foobar has it right, for ALPA to survive it will have to evolve. Flying The Line compared the large airlines to elephants and the little airlines to ants. Let's hope its author didn't mean the legacy carriers are mastodons.

 

[surplus1]

Oh Ye of Little Faith

Yes, ALPA will split. The majors will leave and take their dues with them. AMR, UAL, DAL, NWA, AAA, FedEx, and UPS, along with others will likely form their own union down the road. They will take with them the bargaining rights with the major airlines. The rest of the industry will be thrown to the wolves, and Mr. Ford will see exactly what his efforts accomplished: ruining the careers of pilots at Comair, ASA, and the rest of the regional industry who will not be able to stop the race to the bottom. Hopefully, I will have moved on by then. Thanks RJDC.

--a concerned regional pilot

Some of us always see the glass as half-empty. Others see it as half-full. No, ALPA won't split.

A long time ago, circa 1860, a conflict arose within the "Union". Some seceeded but a Civil War ensued, not to "free the slaves", but to preserve the Union. Those who wanted the "wrong" to be righted prevailed. The Union was preserved, and the "national entity" moved on to bigger and better things. This is just a replay.

ALPA doesn't need to be disbanded. The problem is not the institution, the problem is misguided politicians that hold positions of leadership. Their lack of foresight, fueled by their greed, has the ship of state on a course toward the rocks.

If the RJDC is successful, it will simply force a change of course that will keep the ship from foundering on the reef and prevent the destruction of the union. Before that happens there may be the equivalent of a civil war but in the end, the Union will be preserved and emerge stronger than ever.

That is the objective. Some lack the vision to see it. Others want to hang on to the helm, keep the misguided power and the bad politics and steer the ship on the wrong course until it founders on the rocks. They will not prevail.

ALPA will survive and be much the better for it. Keep the Faith.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Pjjim, those were sentiments right from the source, UPA leadership. Were you? No, Flying The Line is not the Bible, but it is the official history of ALPA. Check out the copyright of Part II, it is not by author George Hopkins, it is by the Air Line Pilots Association. What is or is not in it may not be true but it is OFFICIAL.

Scope..., taking an argument to the extreme belies your own personnal ambitions. You seem to have this notion that if the regionals roll and take one for the team, that some day in the distant future, mainline pilots out of the kindness of their own hearts bend down from the heavens and bestow you with a mainline seniority number. Hopefully, for our sakes, you will have moved on by then. Ingratiating yourself to mainline interests by bashing your fellow regional pilots and their attempts for fair representation by their own union shows just how (selfishly) "concerned" you really are.

Foobar has it right, for ALPA to survive it will have to evolve. Flying The Line compared the large airlines to elephants and the little airlines to ants. Let's hope its author didn't mean the legacy carriers are mastodons.

A couple of misstatements from you. Mainline pilots do NOT bestow a seniority number. Management does via the hiring process. Moreover, I am not integrating myself with the mainline pilots. How do you suck a$$ to somebody anonymously? Answer: You can't. I got into the business and the path was clear, go through the military or come up through the regionals to get the mainline job. I did not enter flight training hoping to someday get hired by Comair or ASA for my career. Nor did the MAJORITY of those at both carriers. Comair and ASA are a means to an end. That is, until the lifers chose to sue their union because they don't get their own personal vendetta satisfied. How does that differ from someone who wants the process to stay the way it is? Answer: It isn't. You laud Delta pilots as greedy. The truth is that they are pilots just as the RJDC folk are. Neither is more or less greedy. One group has always had the bargaining power with Delta. One never has. One group is not suing themselves in order to push the agenda of the MINORITY.

You are right, ALPA will have to evolve to survive. I will add that ALPA will have to evelve for the careers of the regional carriers to survive. I do not see ALPA evolving, nor the careers of the regional carriers' pilots surviving. I stand by my previous post. You and Surplus will be around, of course, for the "I told you so." I will be saying it under the same screenname but with a more lucrative job than you. I can only assume that you will still be at Comair, since it is such the Mecca........NOT.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[pjjim]

Don't believe everything you read!

Yes I was intimately involved with both ALPA and UPA. In fact our company was one of three that begged ALPA to set up UPA.

You were not there so don't tell me. And oh bye the way ALPA has be know to LIE! Talk to any Eastern, Pan Am; et al pilot

Your holy union only serves itself! FACT JACK

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Don't believe everything you read!

And oh bye the way ALPA has be know to LIE!

Huh?

Talk to any Eastern, Pan Am; et al pilot

I talk to one Eastern guy regularly...my dad. (Full-term striker.) Yes, he feels like ALPA has problems...but he also thinks you're better off with ALPA than without it.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Re: Re: Don't believe everything you read!

Huh?I talk to one Eastern guy regularly...my dad. (Full-term striker.) Yes, he feels like ALPA has problems...but he also thinks you're better off with ALPA than without it.

Typh,

IMO, there will still be an "ALPA" It will represent the interests of groups with like contracts and goals. It will not represent the interests of groups whos dues cannot support their councils. In fact, I will go so far as to say that the majority of ALPA as we know it today will go to work for the new "alliance", and the regional carriers will be left with Duane Woerth (until he resigns, he is a NWA pilot), the title of ALPA, and the building in Herndon(unless they wish to sell it to the new alliance. The new alliance will look substantially like it does today, same aeromedical, legal, etc.

Be careful what you ask for, RJDc, you just may get it. Your very own EQUAL representation.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[Typhoon1244]

scopeCMRandASA,

Actually, I think Duane is with Delta, not Northwest. Isn't he?

And I think dad meant we're better off with ALPA than with nothing...as my little brother's non-union carrier proves almost every day. (How'd you like to do four back-loaded stand-ups in a row?)

Something big is going to happen to ALPA, and I've got a hunch it's not going to be good for me and my fellow RJ drivers.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

scopeCMRandASA,

Actually, I think Duane is with Delta, not Northwest. Isn't he?

And I think dad meant we're better off with ALPA than with nothing...as my little brother's non-union carrier proves almost every day. (How'd you like to do four back-loaded stand-ups in a row?)

Something big is going to happen to ALPA, and I've got a hunch it's not going to be good for me and my fellow RJ drivers.

I guess we are saying the same thing. Representation, better with it than without it. However, I do not see the future representation of the regional carriers as having any kind of strength or clout. And yes, it will suck for us, the little guys. But we let it happen to ourselves. We allowed the RJDC to proliferate. I know many at my carrier who think they will win either way. RJDC victory, they enjoy the spoils. RJDC loss, who is the RJDC? Win/Win. Not so. Let me ask you, seriously, do you think we ought to have a say in scope, since it was the major carriers who allowed us flying in the first place?

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[Typhoon1244]

Let me ask you, seriously, do you think we ought to have a say in scope, since it was the major carriers who allowed us flying in the first place?

The fact that the question even arises shows that something has gone terribly wrong in this industry. The argument has been made that the regionals should never have been "allowed" to acquire jets..or any airplane over nineteen seats, for that matter...in the first place. And the folks who argue that are probably right.

But since that would put me out of a job, I don't find it a very palatable idea!

 

[mesapilot]

ALPA cannot protect a job at United, for example, and argue for the expansion of UAX at the same time. This entire profession is about protecting good flying jobs, not crappy minumum wage/FAR work rule dominated jobs. Every time another trip is outsourced another professional career is ended. I understand this creates problems amongst regional pilots because all you have is your crappy career and the "quick" upgrade carrot mgmt puts out in front.

Don't take this personally, but most major ALPA members don't care what happens to your regional career. If you want to advance your career, apply to the majors. Otherwise get your own frickin union and stop sucking off of ours. The RJ growth will stop at some point, whether there will be any major airline jobs to go to is questionable, but no matter what, the profession will be much worse off.

So that is why I say that the pilots of each major carrier will eventually break away and bring all flying under one list again. What that means to existing regional pilots, I don't know. One thing I know is that we are not all on the same side just because we are all under ALPA.

 

[Typhoon1244]

...get your own frickin union and stop sucking off of ours.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize it was your union. I sure thought I was paying dues...

The RJ growth will stop at some point, whether there will be any major airline jobs to go to is questionable, but no matter what, the profession will be much worse off.

What does "profession" mean? Does it refer to wages? Is someone making $300 an hour a "professional" while someone making $70 an hour is a cowboy?

Gosh, you'd think there'd be RJ's and turboporps falling out of the sky every day!

Let me also remind you that if, for example, the Delta MEC had done what we wanted, our CRJ's would be full of highly-paid, "professional" mainline pilots and we'd all be on the street. Don't say they didn't have their chance.

 

[T-Gates]

Actually, I think Duane is with Delta, not Northwest. Isn't he?

Duane is a 747 Captain with NWA....

--03M