Thunderstorm flying????

[AAsRedHeadedbro]

I learned about TRW flying by reading everything I could get my hands on about the subject, practicing with every concept of radar usage and interpretation I came across until I felt comfortable with them, observing experienced captains make a lot of good decisions and a few bad ones, getting close to the weather (sometimes too close) and experiencing the kind of mind numbing, god awful, terrifying turbulence that the inside of a TRW can dish out. In short, years of practice, practice, practice.

I have been inside a thunderstorm twice in my 9000 hours of flying. I wasn't a working pilot during either encounter and the second time I was in an A-300-600R jumpseat. That encounter was by far the worst experience of my aviation life. I thought we might actually pull something off the airplane before we got through it. It was violent beyond description. Who would've thought an airplane that can weigh 400,000 pounds would've been tossed like we were that night. Struck by lightning. Flew into hail. St. Elmo's fire like I have never seen before all over the windshields and posts. When we stumbled out of the other side of that thing and regained our composure, the FO attempted to exit the cockpit through the cockpit door. He couldn't. One of the male flight attendants had hit the door so hard during the turbulence that he actually knocked the door over the backstop and jammed it shut. We all had to exit the cockpit via the kickout panel at the bottom of the door.

Don't even ask how we got into that beast. We were in cloud over the ocean at night. Captain's radar control was off. FO's was pointed up at the moon, not down where it should've been. Lights on in the cockpit, eating and yacking. Totally avoidable IMO.

Experiences like that only serve to firm up your resolve to NEVER see the inside of a thunderstorm again. Anyone who would laugh about being inside a thunderstorm is either completely off his rocker or he hasn't really seen the inside of a big storm. They'll put the fear of god in you.

 

[starchkr]

Hey i'm one of the guys here at Airnet who laughs about the tip tanks bouncing above the fuselage when in turbulence... I think we only laugh to cover up how scared we were to watch that though. It is a spooky feeling when you just pray that those wings will hold up to all of that flexing.

Also remember, for those that fly with radar onboard, that the radar is very misleading most of the time. It only shows returns and not turbulence of any kind. There are times when the radar is showing red all around you and you have the smoothest ride possible, and then there are the "so called lovely" days when it is only green and you can't seem to be able to keep the shiny side up.

The best way to learn about the storms is to remember that the stuff you fly around today will not be the same stuff next time. There is really no way to possibly learn about storms until you experience them. So really, no-one will ever know how to deal with the storms because no two are alike. The best advice is, if you feel uncomfortable for any reson, don't go! Also, ride reports mean NOTHING!!!!! Just because the guy 10 minutes ahead of you says smooth, who says that the weather hasn't moved just a little closer to you and now you, going the exact same way he did, can't keep the shiny side up.

 

[captjim]

Yea, I've seen the tip tanks of both the 310's and 402 bouncing . I've been through two level 3's in both planes. Once intentional and once unintentional, its an interseting ride. I've been through a few in the 120's and ERJ.

What I've learned is simple, stay upwind(thats easy, the otherside of the anvil, or if you have wind detection equipment use that). The other thing, stay in the blue sky if you can.

Everytime you go through an area of T-storms is different. Just an opinion if you penatrate one, try to slow down hold level(not altitude) and decend; unload the wings so to speak. Well all of the things that you read in the books.

Pretty much everything that I know (which isant much) I learned from experience. Practice Practice Practice, and we get a lot of that here in Houston!

 

[fr8tdog227]

I've seen many a thunderstorm from CA to TX and even the midwest flying freight. I've been flown into a few in UT but for most thunderstorms, see and avoid works the best. At night when in semi-clear air, distant lightning flashes are usually bright enough to show what is out there. Nothing like giving yourself vectors around stuff that ATC can't see.

Fly safe and live.

 

[avbug]

I'm shocked and a little disappointed at the number of folks who recommend experience in thunderstorms as the best way to learn about them. This is absolutely not the case.

Recommending that one fly through thunderstorms to learn about thunderstorm flying is like recommending someone snort cocaine to learn about it. One needn't do a line of coke to determine that it's bad, nor need one fly through a thunderstorm to understand that it's a really unwise thing.

I'm shocked at the flippant attitude that anything up to a level three tstm is okay. Not so. Not in the least.

Unless one happens to be a weather researcher with a good reason for being inside or close to a thunderstorm, there is no good reason to be inside, least of all getting experience at understanding thunderstorms.

There are times when one may encounter something embedded and be in it before one realizes it. One should do everything possible to avoid such situations, and to exit the storm ASAP once it's encountered, where able.

Does a thunderstorm of any magnitude concern me? You betcha. Boxes don't care so much, but passengers certainly do. Further, the airplane cares. You who think flight through level three is okay, and who laugh at tip tanks bouncing, should set aside some time to meet with a few of my friends. You can talk to their headstones, because their airplanes came apart recently after extended exposure to turbulence and other stresses on the wings. Have a good laugh while you're there, but don't expect them to join in. They're a little on the dead side right now.

It's a deadly serious subject, and one that kills more than a few pilots annually. Don't take it lightly for a moment, or feel that flight into or around a thunderstorm is wise. Thunderstorms, even those of lesser predicted intensity, have forces within that far exceed the capability of the strongest and most powerful aircraft man has to offer.

Study, read, observe, fly with and speak with and listen to those who can tell you what you need to know. Most of all, listen to the most important advice you'll ever get about flight through or near thunderstorms: avoid them like your life depends on it, because it does. You needn't exceed Vne to understand that it's not right. You needn't fly into a hillside to understand that the hillside will win. You needn't fly into a thunderstorm to make a commitment to avoid them as much as humanly possible, and to give them a wide berth. Make the commitment now, and remember that is is NOT a laughing matter.

 

[Brother Francis]

If you're not scared, it's because you do not understand the situation.

Convective weather is not a challenge, it is a hazard. Disregard all well intentioned but misguided advice on the best way to penetrate it; there isn't one.

The best method for avoidance is the ISB technique, in combination with the TMBOT method. ISB stands for "I See Blue" and TMBOT for "There's More Blue Over There."

I don't know if he's still around, but there's a guy named Archie Trammel who used to teach 8-hour seminars on using airborne radar. He also sold a videotape version. It was dry as the Sahara Desert, but good information.

 

[falcondriver]

I've recently read the Collins book on thunderstorms and Severe Weather Flying by Dennis Newton. They are a good read, but experience is the best tool for learning to fly around thunderstorms. I've done a lot of flying around thunderstorms in the last 4 years, mainly in cargo Falcon 20's. I can honestly say that I didn't like it then and I don't like it now...Just Part Of The Job....
FD

 

[Brother Francis]

The key words in FD's post are "flying around thunderstorms". That is exactly correct.

Eyes are the best tool, then a good radar, then a stormscope, then ATC. Use all the tools at your disposal and be intimately familiar with both their capabilities and limitations.

 

[AAsRedHeadedbro]

As far as radar is concerned, it IS a very valuable tool if one is an educated user and understands the radar's limits. Interpretation with a radar is key. If a pilot simply turns it on and knows little of what he is seeing, then the radar can possibly lead him down the primrose path to destruction. Read the reports of the crash of Southern Air 242 for an example of how NOT to use radar. When I am near an area of weather or am trying to determine if I can find a route through an area, my use of the radar's tilt, gain, and range controls increases exponentially.

I will absolutely reiterate my position that I will never knowingly penetrate any thunderstorm. Never have and never will. If there is an impenetrable line of thunderstorms along my route (I require a large gap between cells, either visually or on radar, before I'll cross a line), I will either have dispatch file for a completely different route or I will turn around. I will not worm my way through a narrow corridor. I've been there, done that in the past and won't do it again. I've felt as if I was trespassing through a den of sleeping lions - very tense. That's not to say that I won't work my way around scattered to broken cells in an area if there are large, navigable gaps through which to maneuver, again, both visually and with radar.

Radar can be a very valuable tool, indispensable actually, if one knows how to use it correctly and understands and respects its limits.

 

[falcondriver]

I think that is a main weakness with training programs. I've never had someone teach me how to use radar. I had to teach myself. I did have a captain or two that cared enough to give me the basics of radar usage.
FD

 

[rgnlwannabe]

I don't have very much thunderstorm experience to speak of, but what I did to get around them was this. I asked Center for a temporary frequency change, and then called flight watch on 122.0, and they were very helpful in telling me where the weather was, where it was moving, intensity, and even a good re-route to get around it. Since I don't have any radar oncoard, it was a tremendous help. Ofcourse, nothing is better then your eyes, and not flying throught it.

 

[LA Confidential]

"There is no reason to fly through a thunderstorm in peacetime."
- Sign over Squadron Ops desk at Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ.

 

[AV1ATRX]

It's TRIAL AND TERROR, not Trial and Error. I don't claim to know everything about weather, but what I know I learned through trial and terror flying checks.

I never flew through a storm intentionally, but I did when I was flying with another guy one day who was not a pleasant person to fly with. He had about 10k more hours than me, about half of which were in Vietnam. He was the craziest pilot I have ever shared a cockpit with. The controller told him it looked like a Level III, and this crazy dude said he'd fly through it and give him a PIREP on the other side. Sure enough, he did it. NEVER AGAIN. When I protested what he was doing, he told me I was a chicken and that I wasn't captain material. Whatever....

I was fired from that job for not flying in severe icing conditions and various other illegal situations. I look for that guy to bite it any day now, and I pray for his family and the family of his passengers. That will be the true tragedy.

Fly AROUND them. Or land until they pass, if you can. It breaks my heart when people die unnecessarily. Read the accident reports - they'll tell you about it.

 

[MetroSheriff]

It's TRIAL AND TERROR, not Trial and Error.

LOL. Good one AV1ATRX.

 

[TurboS7]

In all my flyiing which includes living and flying in the midwest for years, I can honestly say that I have never been in a TRW. I have flown around them zig-zaged right through a line but I have never experienced the kind of turbulence you guys are talking about. I have been all over the world and flown every kind of airplane, day, night, and everything in-between . I agree with Avbug, no one on this board has any business being there unless they are with NOAA or the equivalent. Good day guys.

 

[Boeingman]

I learned about TRW flying by reading everything I could get my hands on about the subject, practicing with every concept of radar usage and interpretation I came across until I felt comfortable with them, observing experienced captains make a lot of good decisions and a few bad ones, getting close to the weather (sometimes too close) and experiencing the kind of mind numbing, god awful, terrifying turbulence that the inside of a TRW can dish out. In short, years of practice, practice, practice.

I have been inside a thunderstorm twice in my 9000 hours of flying. I wasn't a working pilot during either encounter and the second time I was in an A-300-600R jumpseat. That encounter was by far the worst experience of my aviation life. I thought we might actually pull something off the airplane before we got through it. It was violent beyond description. Who would've thought an airplane that can weigh 400,000 pounds would've been tossed like we were that night. Struck by lightning. Flew into hail. St. Elmo's fire like I have never seen before all over the windshields and posts. When we stumbled out of the other side of that thing and regained our composure, the FO attempted to exit the cockpit through the cockpit door. He couldn't. One of the male flight attendants had hit the door so hard during the turbulence that he actually knocked the door over the backstop and jammed it shut. We all had to exit the cockpit via the kickout panel at the bottom of the door.

Don't even ask how we got into that beast. We were in cloud over the ocean at night. Captain's radar control was off. FO's was pointed up at the moon, not down where it should've been. Lights on in the cockpit, eating and yacking. Totally avoidable IMO.

Experiences like that only serve to firm up your resolve to NEVER see the inside of a thunderstorm again. Anyone who would laugh about being inside a thunderstorm is either completely off his rocker or he hasn't really seen the inside of a big storm. They'll put the fear of god in you.

Interesting to see if this plane was the one that went down out of JFK? How long ago did this happen?

Another lesson here: I ALWAYS use the radar on at night.