Thoughts on A&P license

[legaleagle]

Question,

Wanted to get input from anyone out there with an A&P. I am 31 years old, and a recent graduate of law school, and am getting married next May, after about 10 years of business ownership experience and banking experience. Not feelin the love in the legal field. I am commercial-instrument-soon to be multi, but due to salaries and schedule, I really don't aspire to be an airline pilot (that being said if the pay and schedule were better I would jump at the chance). But, my desire to be in the business of aviation in the industry seems to be nagging at me constantly. I am really good at science and mechanical issues, and love to tinker, as kind of an amateur inventor or doing my own amateur repairs on various things, like cars, etc.

Anyway, I have been looking at some aviation businesses to buy, and after some research, I am very interested in doing the A&P, so that I could start my own maintenance business. There is a place in L.A where you can get your license very cheaply, under $500 a semester, and you can finish in a year.

Any thoughts on salary, schedule, ability to run your own business doing GA piston repairs/mods with the license, etc. ??? It seems like if you are reputable and timely, you can build a sucessful business somewhat quickly.

Any help would be appreciated.

CB

 

[310]

I am in the A&P program at Wayne Comminity College in Goldsboro, NC.

It is the oldest public program on the eastern seaboard.

Thoughts? I think its worth the trouble.

I say go the school route instead of the "on the job route". Too many details one might miss if you just study for the test.

 

[legaleagle]

A&P

Apparently the programs that I have looked at in L.A. are only one year long. Not bad.

CB

 

[310]

what is the name of the program in L.A.?
Website?

 

[legaleagle]

north valley occupational center

 

[avbug]

First of all, if it's flying you want to do, your A&P often means you'll be turning wrenches and not props.

Second of all, obtaining your mechanic certificate does not qualify you to open a shop. It qualifies you to go to work for someone else for ten years or so in order to get the experience to begin thinking about opening your own shop.

Third, if you own your own shop, you're going to be hiring an inspector or contracting out the inspection work until you can have the experience to obtain your IA on your own.

Fourth, the liability in the business today, coupled with the low amount that many mechanics make, means that a lot of guys go seek work at car dealerships instead.

Fifth, seeking anything in aviation because it's "cheap" is a fools errand, and you ultimately cheat yourself.

Sixth, with a law degree you want to turn wrenches, burn your hands, cut your knuckles, live with grease under your fingers, in your clothes and hair for the next twenty years, and put safety wire and drill bits through your fingers?

Are you out of your mind??

Not feeling the love in the law business, huh? I remember distinctly feeling the love one day during a rush job on an airplane, when a fastener let go and the wrench I was using for torque slipped. My hand went into some sharp metal, cut my finger to the bone, and broke it. In short order we had the wound taped closed, a broken popsicle stick taped between the injured finger and the good one, and I was finishing the project to get it back in the air. I felt the love for the next year while I tried to regain use of that finger and bend it again.

I remember the feeling the love one winter night a few years ago when I realized that among the metal shavings I was drilling out was some skin, and then a little bone. My hand still tingles sometimes. Or working in sub zero temperatures doing a cylinder change from a ladder and wondering where the blood is coming from...to find a piece of wire stuck through a finger. Lots of love there.

Really makes those paper cuts in the law office seem brutal, love not withstanding.

Hopefully you didn't choose the cheapest law school.

 

[qmaster3]

Jesus avbug. I've done a lot of stupid sh!t, but never bored a hole in my finger.

 

[avbug]

Spent a lot of time working in the shop, have you?

 

[urflyingme?!]

Holy cow man. I've spent some time i front of a saw and a lathe, but never bored a hole in my finger!
Although I wasn't actually doing the 9-5 either. Let's here some stories man!!!

 

[qmaster3]

Spent a lot of time working in the shop, have you?

Yes avbug, and if I am jinxed now and end up with a hole in my finger. You will be the first to know!

 

[mazbaird]

Dont forget all those nice chemicals and skydrol we get to work around!!

 

[bobbysamd]

Legal profession v. turning wrenches

Great story, as always, from avbug.

As someone who works in the legal profession, and as someone who works for attorneys, I will only say that the grass is always greener from the other side, especially when you're on the outside looking in.

There is always the practice of aviation law, if you want to combine your interests and actually help people.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[Vector4fun]

Jesus avbug. I've done a lot of stupid sh!t, but never bored a hole in my finger.

Count me among the "stupid" ones. Too young and impatient to use a clamp with the drill press. Didn't really hurt til an hour or so later....

Got some nice burn scars while welding the fuselage too...

 

[avbug]

Like when the spatter goes down the back of your neck, or when without thinking, you grab a tube or rod with your mask or goggles still on...and don't realize (because you can't see it and are wearing leather gloves) that the piece you just grabbed is still cherry red with heat...

Amazing how long the gloves hold in that heat after you drop the part, isn't it?

My favorites are those little aluminum or steel slivers that you get after a day of metal work...the ones you can't find, even wth a magnifying glass, but that you feel every time you move your hand.

I'm all for someone getting their mechanic certificate, especially if they want to fly for a living. It's a backup trade, it's a way to learn an airplane that can't be touched through normal pilot training channels, and it can help you find work. I've bee hired into more than a few piloting jobs because I'm also a mechanic.

I'm also all for someone becoming a mechanic if that's what they really want to do. The truth is that the maintenance industry is hurting for good, dedicated mechanics. The mechanics that are active in the business, many of them, are very dedicated to what they do because like pilots, they have to be...they're certainly not here because this is a wonder job and the money is so great. It's a respectable, honorable job to be sure, but it's no great money maker.

If it's what you want to do, the by all means give it a shot. You should know that you can work in a repair station without a certificate, and gain some experience while you're at it. It's a good way to see if you'll like what you're doing. You'll spend the first six months as an aircraft cleaner, most likely, but that's pretty much what you'll do out of school anyway. If you manage to make it through 30 months of on the job training you can challenge the certificate before a designated maintenance examiner and obtain your mechanic certificate (and airframe and powerplant ratings) that way. Or you can just do the school.

Maintenance schools are normally eighteen months to two years. Some programs push you through in twelve or thirteen months, but you still need to accomplish the same amount of work in a shorter time. I haven't heard of the school mentioned at the top of this thread, but there are some good schools that are well known that do it. It's a lot of work with very little income while you're there, and you're going to come out with a certain prospect of being hired (all but gauranteed to find a job...companies compete for maintenance school graduates)...but you'll have to move for the job, and it won't pay a lot. As long as you understand that, no worries.

The other thing you really need to understand before rushing into a new career in maintenance is that it's not something you can learn in school. You can learn the basics, and there are a LOT of basics, but mechanic school doesn't make you a practicing mechanic. It makes you a trainee, and your real training, like many fields, begins when you get to the shop to start working. For someone hoping to open their own shop, several years experience and training under a different shop, inspector, or repair station is in order, at a minimum. You have no more business leaving maintenance school and opening your own shop than a med school graduate has opening a private practice after he or she graduates...none at all.

Tools are expensive, an investment. For a shop, you'll need a fair amount of test equipment, jacks, inspection equipment, supplies, parts, stock, bench and shop equipment, etc, that a mechanic wouldn't normally have, which represents a very, very substantial investment. Certainly doable if you have the capital, but not something you want to do just to try out. And also not something you want to try unless you have some good solid working experience with the equipment and the operation, first.

Don't forget the insurance...malpractice and liability insurance for yourself and your shop isn't cheap, and your ability to be insured in the shop as a mechanic rests with your experience.

So...how about those little cuts and punctures from a single frayed strand on a cable, or around a swaged fitting when inspecting the thimble on a terminal end? You know the ones I mean? Where you almost think they poke the bone, but they never bleed? The ones that don't stop hurting for three or four days? Or how about removing fuel panels on a wing or fuselage belly...too high to reach laying down on a creeper, but too low to sit up and reach, and there are two hundred of the little suckers, half of them stripped out by the last idiot who worked on it (probably the pilot), and you can't use the Makita because it's too close to the fuel...I usually feel the love about half way into that. I invent new words, too. Awful, vile words. Words that put a run of the mill sailor to shame and cause him to run to a closet seeking pennance...

Or just the smell of MEK in the morning?

 

[fr0g]

I can't believe nobody has said it yet.. being an attorney is the prerequisite for an aviation business these days! You're half way there already!
Seriously, anyone have any feedback on going the avionics route? It seems like most avionics places do fairly well..

 

[Vector4fun]

when without thinking, you grab a tube or rod with your mask or goggles still on...and don't realize (because you can't see it and are wearing leather gloves) that the piece you just grabbed is still cherry red with heat...

Exactly. I also spent some time in a shop fabricating metal duct work. Amazing I still have all my fingers.

 

[Some guy]

If you have no maintenance experience, stay away from those 'too good to be true' offers from schools willing to give you the 2 week crash course for $500. The FAA can and will pull your license if you are caught obtaining a license without the proper training / credentials.

If you are looking to make good money, have you thought about going for your ASE certification? Those guys probably make twice what we make...Supply and demand? Who knows? Once you get your A&P license, you might be able to find a good job for about $12-$15 starting out. You may have to move to a different part of the country for that job though.

 

[legaleagle]

Gents,


Particuarly Avbug. I appreciate your feedback immensely. For a fleeting moment, I was thinking that the A&P would provide the ability to open my own business through providing reputable timely service in a job that would I would love....working with airplanes...and it would be outdoors 24/7 in the L.A basin. But, it does seem like a modest return after $250k+ of undergrad and law school...AAAHHH!!!!!!, even though I love flying, I just don't think that the pro pilot route is for me, with salaries and schedule...better to have a job and fly on my own...So, that leaves what I have been trying to do, find a job in the business of aviation, sales manager, operations manager, etc. of an FBO, Charter, etc. Anybody have any suggestions in the L.A basin? I have no idea why, but I am so obsessed with the aviation industry, and want to make something work in it, aside from doing legal work for pilots on enforcement actions. That is a not enough business to make a career, and the aviation law biz is actually declining very quickly both on plaintiff and defense, due to a lack of accidents (thank god) and the iron grip that the insurers have on the legal community, now that there are only three insurers left. In other words, despite my original goal, there is just not enough aviation to go around which leaves me with being a corporate small business attorney... well I guess there could be worse things...

Oh well....to those who have had the gumption, fortitude, focus, and made the sacrifice to pursue a flying career, I truly salute you...you are doing exactly what you want..

CB

 

[avbug]

Just a thought...law is now your vocation. Why not try aviation law? Owning your own aircraft may be the ticket to meeting clients and getting work done, and at least as a practicing attorney down the road owning an aircraft may be affordable (which isn't the case for a mechanic or pilot, often as not).

With that in mind, why not continue flying and start doing some instructing on the side. Even if it's one student at a time. I know of no better way to share one's love of flying with others and to enjoy their pleasure of flight, and to instruct. In avaition, like all professions, there is no higher calling than teacher.

Teaching is different than instructing, and one who feels driven to aviation, who is not there to "build time" or punch a ticket, has an opportunity to become a teacher. You may find that it fits your schedule and your needs better than other avenues, and may lead to operating or owning a flight school at some point. Grass roots aviation is where it's at...everything else is too high dollar to be anything but a tenuous desperate gasp.

Fly safe.

 

[legaleagle]

Avbug,

I appreciate it again.. You are entirely right. I have really wanted to get the CFI ticket for a couple of years now, for no other reason than to help people. I already have the commercial, etc. I was swamped with reading in school, that flying was my escape, so the thought of doing a lot of bookwork for the CFI was not appealing and put me off for a bit. But, because I love it, and I don't have to build time, I think it would be the perfect way to get some flying time, work with people who share the passion, and it allows me to do it one student at a time, part time, with increasing time if I want it. I love to teach, and I love helping people and working with them to achieve a goal...So, that may be the way to go.... Avbug, great advice and great website....Keep up the good work.

CB