Thoughts on a degree (GooseEgg)

[UnAnswerd]

You are certainly not alone in your opinions toward college. Most of society would likely agree that a 4-year college degree means that you're simply more educated than those without one. And sure, it's no secret that having that degree is highly conductive to ones success in whatever career path they choose to pursue. But I would like to briefly share my point of view if you don't mind...

I believe an individual can learn so much on thier own, without college. All you really have to do is read a lot of books, and then couple that information with hands-on experience. It's definitely doable in most cases, and doing this over a period of time can really bring impressive results. I have been doing exactly this for only 2 years now, and I'm already performing complex repairs within the automotive industry, and receiving the decent pay that has enabled me to pay for those flying lessons. I'm not a master tech yet, but if I simply keep up at what I have been doing, I should be one sooner than you may think. Interestingly enough, there are schools that offer this same type of instruction. But I simply feel I am learning quite well on my own, and I'm also getting paid for it, instead of PAYING for it.

There are exceptions, but I say that if it's in ones heart to learn and excel, they can be just as, if not more qualified than someone who holds a 4-year degree in the same area. All that remains hereafter is the stereotypes. The stereotypes that those without a degree are simply not as intelligent as those who do have one. You certainly seem to hold that same stereotype by claiming that all those irrelevant people, processes, words, and formulas that you learned in college is what life is all about. Then you have the nerve to say it's "sad" that I haven't gone to college, as if simply learning things on my own was apathetic in nature and to be done in vain. But that's okay, I accept your viewpoint as the same viewpoint upheld by much of society. But the difference between me and you, is that I will not spend many thousands to rid myself of a ridiculous stereotype, no matter how bad it may hurt my career. Nobody lives forever.

 

[unreal]

I know I'm not the person this post is written for, but I'd like to give my two cents.

Certainly a person without a college degree can be smarter and more technically qualified than a person with one. Given enough experience, this isn't a problem for most people. The real issue behind a college degree is that it immediately shows a prospective employer that you have the dedication and drive to complete a challenging task. If they see that you've dedicated 4 years to a college education, you very often have a one-up on the guy without one.

 

[Goose Egg]

I believe an individual can learn so much on thier own, without college. All you really have to do is read a lot of books, and then couple that information with hands-on experience. It's definitely doable in most cases...

Hey, good for you. I'm not knocking that at all. In fact, I am doing some things like that in addition to my college education--there is still stuff that I want to know more about. Most people don't bother reading at all, and that includes those who have graduated from college as well as those who haven't. My main points are simply that having the degree will unlock more job opportunities for you, and that the process of getting the degree will accelerate that acquisition of knowledge, and do it on a broader base. For example, say that you had spent that time getting a two-year degree in auto repair technology. You would have the knowledge that you have now, more expertise in your technical field, and all the "irrelavant" (an opinion with which I vigorously disagree) stuff, and have the qualifications to get just about any job that you wanted in the industry. I hold the view that knowledge is power; get all that you can. Aviation is a lot tougher field than auto repair, and a degree won't get you any job you want. Will you be ready? It's a question that only you can answer, because after all it is your life.

But I simply feel I am learning quite well on my own, and I'm also getting paid for it, instead of PAYING for it.

Ok, here's the thing. State school: if you declare yourself independent from your folks for tax purposes, state school is essentially free if you don't do flight training. Mine was (except for the flying, of course). I had pell grants covering all my tuition and around $2000 per semester for flying. I don't know why people don't realize this.

Then you have the nerve to say it's "sad" that I haven't gone to college, as if simply learning things on my own was apathetic in nature and to be done in vain.

If you will kindly re-read my post, you will see that I used the term "sad" because you viewed college as simply a means to and end to get a job--a means, mind you, that you didn't find worthwhile. I thought it was sad because one can get so much more out of college in all aspects; social, intellectual, etc.

...But the difference between me and you, is that I will not spend many thousands to rid myself of a ridiculous stereotype, no matter how bad it may hurt my career.

First of all, I didn't spend many thousands. Second of all, fine--knock yourself out. You realize that it could hurt your career, yet you are willing to make yourself a martyr for the cause. And if you want to do that, it's certainly your perogative. I'm just making an observation that you may want to rethink your position.

-Goose

 

[UnAnswerd]

My main points are simply that having the degree will unlock more job opportunities for you

And why is that? Because it is believed by much of society that those holding the degree are simply more qualified. In many cases, that's true. But sadly, there are some cases where someone without a degree can actually be better suited to fulfill the particular job requirements than another applicant with the degree. No, a neurosurgeon is NOT one of them, but just look at the major airlines. They don't care what the degree is in???? What does that tell you? It's just a big stereotype.

For example, say that you had spent that time getting a two-year degree in auto repair technology. You would have the knowledge that you have now, more expertise in your technical field...... and have the qualifications to get just about any job that you wanted in the industry.

I find that hard to believe. You tell me which better prepares you for work within the auto industry. 2 years of class-time and wrenching on demo cars, or 2-years of actually working in the industry, and diagnosing REAL problems??? And you don't need a degree to attaint Master ASE certification, which is as good as anything on your application. But you're correct, auto service is not regarded as a very technical field.

I thought it was sad because one can get so much more out of college in all aspects; social, intellectual, etc.

That remains your opinion. Personally, I believe anything that college isn't teaching you regarding your indented career, is a waste of your time and money. It's nice to know who picaso is and what an integral is, but I can quickly study that on my own time in the bizarre event that I would ever really need to know.

College degrees are for doctors, engineers, etc...They should not be required to hold a job as a pilot. It's your cert's, ratings, and experience that proves you know how to fly, not you degree in art.

 

[bobbysamd]

Degree - or - Hey, Yip, your customer is back!!

I believe an individual can learn so much on thier own, without college. All you really have to do is read a lot of books, and then couple that information with hands-on experience. It's definitely doable in most cases, and doing this over a period of time can really bring impressive results. I have been doing exactly this for only 2 years now, and I'm already performing complex repairs within the automotive industry, and receiving the decent pay that has enabled me to pay for those flying lessons.

Perhaps so for automotive and many other jobs, but as far as aviation goes, and Pilotyip notwithstanding, you miss the point.

Yes, you can learn plenty without going to college, but if the airline for which you want to work requires or expects applicants to have a degree, you have nothing.

The argument has been advanced that you do not need a degree to get a good-paying pilot job and that most airlines do not require a degree. However, the applicants to those companies who are actually hired will have more education than only high school. And, the ones with degrees have an advantage over them. The funny thing about airline hiring quals is they set forth minimum requirements, e.g. 1500 total-500 multi, which implies strongly that you should automatically be interviewed if you meet those requirements. The truth is you need far more than the minimums to be a competitive applicant. The same holds true for education; the degree may not be a firm requirement but it certainly gives you an advantage over comparable applicants without it.

College degrees are for doctors, engineers, etc...They should not be required to hold a job as a pilot. It's your cert's, ratings, and experience that proves you know how to fly, not you degree in art.

There are a lot of "shoulds" and "should be's." The reality is if you want the job you need to produce the piece of paper. Others will if you won't. Be smart. Enroll in school. Your auto technology background might translate into college credit and a head start on your degree.

 

[Goose Egg]

I completely agree with what bobbysamd said.

Personally, I believe anything that college isn't teaching you regarding your indented career, is a waste of your time and money.

Did I say sad? I meant tragic.

College degrees are for doctors, engineers, etc...They should not be required to hold a job as a pilot. It's your cert's, ratings, and experience that proves you know how to fly, not your degree in art.

So, what are you trying to imply here? You don't feel like doing the college thing, so you feel that the entire industry should alter itself? All pilots should be viewed as tradesman because that is the image you are the most comfortable with? The knowledge and skill required to fly airliners is not on par with other professions? Try explaining that in an interview. I'd like to know how it goes--really, I would.


-Goose

P.S. Did you know that you spelled "unanswered" incorrectly?

 

[bobbysamd]

Two more reasons to get the degree

College degrees are for doctors, engineers, etc...They should not be required to hold a job as a pilot. It's your cert's, ratings, and experience that proves you know how to fly, not your degree in art.

Ever consider the possibility that pilots are often not held in the esteem that they should because of your attitude? For many years, pilots did not need degrees to be hired at the airlines - and management looked down on pilots as being less than professional therefor. It goes back to the old image of flight instructors being guys with greasy coveralls flying out of greasy hangars at backwater airports. However, as more pilots showed up at the airlines with education, pilots were shown more respect. Not to mention that the airlines are comprised primarily of former military pilots, who were military officers, who either graduated from military academies with degrees or from ROTC in college, again, with degrees. I realize that a few mustangs came up from the ranks to go to OCS or the WO program and many of them did not have degrees.

The other, better reason was mentioned elsewhere during a similar discussion:

Airline Interviewer: "Mr. Unanswered, do you have a college degree?"

This can go one of two directions:

Unanswered: "Yes."

or:

Unanswered: "No."

Airline interviewer: "Why not?

Unanswered: "Uhhhh, well, I believe an individual can learn so much on thier own, without college. All you really have to do is read a lot of books, and then couple that information with hands-on experience . . . . "

Airline interviewer: "Why should we hire you when our other applicants are college graduates?

Unanswered: "Ummm . . . . . "

Two directions. Two choices.

Finally,

And sure, it's no secret that having that degree is highly conductive to ones success in whatever career path they choose to pursue.

Don't you mean "conducive"? In any event, Your Honor, I rest my case.

 

[A Squared]

>>>>>>>Personally, I believe anything that college isn't teaching you regarding your indented career,


What exactly is an "indented" career? ..... one working in an auto body shop?


>>>>>> "And you don't need a degree to attaint Master ASE certification"

yes, but do you need spelling skills to attain one?


>>>>>>"It's nice to know who picaso is."

And it's even nicer to know how to spell his name


>>>>>>It's your cert's, ratings, and experience that proves you know how to fly,

yes, but it's making your verbs agree with your subject which makes you sound intelligent.


perhaps you could benefit from some of that irrelevant, non-vocationally oriented, general education

 

[lawfly]

Thoughts on a degree

Okay, I was going to sit out this thread, but it's getting way too colorful. I contributed to the other Unanswerd thread, "I Want To Get Paid To Fly". I wished him well and still do. I have not mentioned on this site that I am an attorney. I mention it here because we are writing about education and degrees. Soloed on my 16th birthday, private at 17, commercial-instrument at 18, CFI at 19-- was a pilot and CFI long before law school.

As I wrote in the other thread, I respect that you (Unanswerd) have an apparent love of flying and a clear focus. However, too much of what you write reflects apparent contempt and general anger. It's beginning to sound like: "It's me against the world"; "The world owes me something"; "I really am intelligent, really."

Focus on the positive. The negativism is unattractive, professionally speaking. As for spelling (including "Unanswerd") and word usage, the others have said enough. As an attorney who has won in court many more times than he has lost, I can tell you that sometimes it is better to say nothing or to say very little.

You don't want to go to college. Fine. Don't go. See you at the airport. Again, best wishes.

 

[UnAnswerd]

Well, most of you buy now are likely starting to think that I sound childish in my viewpoints. That's unfortunate, but I simply cannot deny my feelings toward college. I'll again state that college is for some people, but I still don't think it's the answer for every career out there. I also find it unsettling that it takes the degree to gain respect within our society. Either way, I thank you all for your replies, and willingness to communicate with someone far below your level of intelligence.

 

[bobbysamd]

Well, most of you buy now are likely starting to think that I sound childish in my viewpoints . . . .

That should be "by," by the way. No, not childish, just a little hard-headed and impractical . . . .

I'll again state that college is for some people, but I still don't think it's the answer for every career out there.

No, it's not, not for every career. However, for professional aviation, at the very least a degree levels the playing field with your competition. In other words, the degree just might get you the job. Once more, as you put it:

It's no secret that having that degree is highly conductive to ones success in whatever career path they choose to pursue.

(emphasis added)

You said it, not us.

 

[A Squared]

Well, most of you buy now are likely starting to think that I sound childish in my viewpoints.

You are right.

That's unfortunate,

Again, right, but it's not unfortunate for the reasons you think it's unfortunate.

I think that lawfly summed it up pretty well when he said:

'It's beginning to sound like: "It's me against the world"; "The world owes me something"; "I really am intelligent, really." '

Yeah, you're 20 years old, been out of day care for 2 whole years now and you have it allllllll figured out. At this point you don't even know what you don't know.

You know what, You might be right that a college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane, but you know what else? It doesn't matter one bit what your opinion is or that you may be right. The *fact* of the matter (you appreciate the difference between opinion and fact, don't you?) is that in many cases a college degree has everything to do with getting *hired* to fly airplanes. Your attempts to override that fact with your opinion are futile, and quite frankly, a bit immature. I know too many pilots who have not been able to pursue employment avenues that they were interested in because they didn't have degrees. Some are philosophical and recognize that it is the result of choices *they* made in light of a known reality and they move on with life. Others are bitter and resentful, and they rail against the *injustice* of the system and against anyone with a degree.

You already sound like the second type.

Either way, I thank you all for your replies, and willingness to communicate with someone far below your level of intelligence.

No, I don't think you're unintelligent, merely immature and not terribly well educated. There's a vast world of difference.

 

[lawfly]

Thoughts On a College Degree

You keep bringing up the intelligence thing. Are you paranoid or something? That's an IQ thing, arguably. Not degrees, necessarily. (The Wright Brothers didn't have any degrees.) Let's not go there. Unless you want to. Do you? You seem to have some issues, man. As I said, the "It's me against the world thing" and the whole negativity thing is unattractive, professionally speaking. Focus, get your CFI, be positive, and then you can teach (assuming you can develop a teaching spirit) some lawyers, doctors, business executives, and university deans how to fly, as I did when I was 19 and didn't yet have any degrees. Over and OUT.

 

[UnAnswerd]

I know too many pilots who have not been able to pursue employment avenues that they were interested in because they didn't have degrees. Some are philosophical and recognize that it is the result of choices *they* made in light of a known reality and they move on with life. Others are bitter and resentful, and they rail against the *injustice* of the system and against anyone with a degree. You already sound like the second type.

I appreciate your willingness to share personal experience, even though you come across as slightly abrasive. Foremost, I never stated that there was anything wrong with obtaining a degree, nor would I ever "rail against" anyone who did. But at this point in my life, I am highly interested in flying, and would rather put whatever time I can into my training, rather than the degree. But maybe you and everyone else are correct. Maybe I just wont be able to get decent employment without the degree, thus rendering my many thousand dollars of training useless. So will you kindly tell me exactly what I'm supposed to do? Can I not at least finish my private before possibly looking into college? I would also be interested in the probability of gaining acceptance to a 4-year school, with only moderate grades received during high-school. My biggest fear is 4 years without flying. Maybe a school such as ERAU could give me the degree, plus flight training. That would be great, but what are the chances of getting accepted? How hard is it to get accepted to that type of school???

I'm willing to recognize the errors of my thinking, so any information would be greatly appreciated.

 

[lymanm]

...

I feel I must chime in on this topic. My goal, UnAnswerd , is not to make feel inferior or to question your decisions, but instead hopefully point out the flaws in your perception of what a college degree can do, and how it does not have to interfere with flying.

I did the local flying school thing in highschool, solo @ 16, PPL @ 17, etc... After finishing highschool, I attended one of the large FL-based 141 schools and got my advanced ratings. Like most of us, knowing that flying was in my future has been the case since childhood. However, also knowing the realities of the industry, I began to understand that a degree gets you in the door.

So, while I had the option of staying in FL and plying my way through the industry as an instructor there, I decided to accept an offer to attend a (well known) university in Canada. Because of my year flight training, I was a freshman at 20. Being 1-2 years older than my friends was apparent only occasionally. I'm a senior this year, with a double major in (American) history and humanistics (it's basically a major in electives, hehe). In addition the academic side of things, I was elected president of the dorms in first year, worked for the school administration in my sophmore year and now am executive producer of the campus TV network. Finally, I AM able to reconcile school with flying, as I have 4 month summers; I have worked every summer since starting as a CFI in New England. Hopefully this gives you an idea of where I'm coming from. So, here is a random list of musings regarding the importance of a degree (towards an aviation career and life in general):

-writing/communication...writing 100-200 pages every semester (depending on the courseload) and reading 10x that much allows you to understand your surroundings more. Whether this means not getting screwed in a sleazy p 135 contract, understanding difficult systems descriptions written by an engineer in a POH or reading the paper and understanding why the assisination of a obscure head of state in a remote country can have ramifications in the aviation industy, communication and interpretation are invaluable.... Also along the writing/communication lines has to do with the public image of a flight crew member. Speaking incorrectly or making sweeping generalizations simply make you look bad in front of customers. When you fly, to the public, you represent your fellow pilots, your airline, and if you fly abroad, your country. How you come across is extremely important.

-people...schools expose you a massive variety of people. Whether it's an international university with 100+ different nationalities or a local state college, you will find and be forced to interact with people who have different ideas about life. Learning to understand get along is immensely helpful. In aviation, you never know what kind of person your captain or F/O is going to be, and learning to deal with people can transform a 5-day trip from hell into a pleasant experience. F/As are coming from different backgrounds, as are A&Ps, bag smashers and CEOs. Knowing and understanding how they tick is vital in coordinating a on time departure, negotiating a new contract or dealing with an irate passenger.

-dealing with the powers that be/fighting the system...my school has awful adminstrative policies, and you have to fight to the end to change a course, change majors and other such things. Both apartments I lived in were run by sleazy landlords, one of whom I took to court, the other of which I walked out of an illegal lease. Being patient, persistent and coordinating a plan of attack will lead to less stress down the line. An ansafe SOP, a screw up with your ID badge and a useless protocol at a remote station cannot be changed by getting angry or abusive. Learning to who to go to, what to say and what to expect will make a world of difference.

Now, you may argue that you can learn all of these things outside of school. Absolutely correct. However, the difference with that piece of paper that says "degree" is that it's recognized as officially documenting your activities. Sure, you can describe your activites (like what I've done above) in a cover letter or even in an interview, but having that degree summarizes some very specific things (some of which I mention above, too) to the HR person in charge of hiring you. They see that you can adapt to a system and learn within a system. They see you can commit to something over a relatively long period of time. Yes, you are right in a way that it is unfortunate that society has assigned a value to having a degree and that there are many out there than don't need one, but society has evolved over human existence; fundamentally, having a degree says some very specific things about you. Not having a degree means people may not know as much about you.

"I believe anything that college isn't teaching you regarding your indented career, is a waste of your time and money."

Instead of picking apart this statement, I suggest you read the furlough section of this site.

I must stop now, as I'm off to write a paper on a "bizarre event that I would ever really need to know"

 

[bobbysamd]

Erau

Maybe a school such as ERAU could give me the degree, plus flight training. That would be great, but what are the chances of getting accepted? How hard is it to get accepted to that type of school???

Best way to find out would be to contact Riddle. ERAU has a Professional Aeronautics program that gives college credit for certificates and ratings.

 

[Goose Egg]

Riddle is certainly an option. I saved a rather large sum of money by getting my BS degree at a state school. But choose what's best for you. The Riddle vs. everyone else debate is an entirely different thread.

I am considering starting a Masters degree through Riddle's distance program though.

It is good to see that you have warmed to the idea of college a bit--I think you will find it quite enjoyable. I thought it was great to finally study what I wanted to study. I had a much better experience in college than I did in high school. You strike me as bright guy, maybe a little headstrong though, and not without some spelling issues. I'm sure you'll do fine once you set your mind to it.

Do me a favor though; if you do decide to go to college, print out this thread (and possibly "I want to someday get paid to fly") and tuck it away somewhere. When you graduate, pull it out and compare your feelings to what they are now. I think you'll find the contrast... interesting, to say the least.

Best of luck,
-Goose

 

[Jester119]

College

When it comes down to getting the job say an airline, you and the other person who meets all the req. for the job. The other person who wants the jobs just as bad as you has the same amount of hours same amount of training, and the person with the college degree is going to win.
I am only 20 I am a 3rd year college student finishing up my MEI and CFII. I will be 22 when I finish with a good amount of hours and the degree in aviation, I dont regret it one bit at all, it opened many doors so far. For example interning and getting a lil lear time at the airport where I work.

 

[Clyde]

I've seen a few posts like this before and have contributed my two cents, so what the heck, here's another penny or two.

Is a degree important? Yes and no. A degree is a piece of paper. If a company (such as an airline) requires you to have piece of paper, then you should get it. And, to the best of my knowledge, not one airline out there specifies which degree to get. This is good because it allows you an opportunity to learn something in addition to flying.

As I said above, a degree is a piece of paper. What you can gain in terms of a skill or marketable trade while working on that degree is what I would be thinking about. In other words, aviation degrees are useless. When you invest a lot of your time into studying, get something that you can use in addition to flying. This will allow you to earn a living when the economy is down, and possibly allow you to earn extra cash on your days off.

Bottom line is this: a person with a college degree isn't necessarily a smart person. It's what an individual possesses in his/her mind that makes one smart. Some have a piece of paper, some don't.

 

[Luchini]

Im not an experienced pilot but ill add my own 2 cents I learned in my sociology class. America is a land based on credentials. When you go to the interviews how many of the questions are technically related to your job? Chances are most of the questions are geared towards learning about your personaltiy and persona. A degree shows that you had the discipline to commit to something and complete it. An employer cannot learn the type of person you are in one day but having a degree shows you have good work ethic. It will also add to that company's roster of qualified professionals with credentials.

 

[troy]

For those of you who don't want a degree, don't get one. I don't care. It will make my stand in line shorter. But, just don't try to bring the rest of the crowd down with you. Some kid will read the message and think to themselves that they will be just fine in the competitive world without one (wrong!) Ever wonder why the military requires a degree for a commision? Or why interviewers use the degree as an elimination tool? I guess the educated are just a bunch of idiots in your mind.

 

[air cowboy]

First of all let me say I thoroughly am enjoying this discussion. I only found flight info recently thanks to aopa, and I am an addict already!



Now, as a recent college grad (with highest honors), I couldn't agree with Unanswrd more, the whole college system is screwed up. It does not show intelligence and for the most part what knowledge is gained is not directly applied to life ever again. The economic loss due to wasted time and effort is unimaginable.

What can I add to this discussion that hasn't been mentioned? Unaswrd, if for no other reason, go to college because it is a blast!!! It is not the real world at all. When and where else can you meet new people, sleep in until noon, have your meals made for you, party ever night, hook up with random girls, and have a fresh schedule change ever 4 months? (almost sounds like being a pilot.... It is the best 4-7 yrs of your life! (unless you are like me and do it in 3.5 yrs, but I'll explain that later)



Where am I coming from? I never liked school but got good grades. I graduated and was like you- totally against college. I worked for 3 yrs and spent a yr traveling and working around the world (Alaska, new Zealand, Australia etc..) (Traveling is something more of us Americans should do, it teaches more than any university) Working made me realize that school was not so bad, and maybe I should go to college.



So I went to a 2 yr private school in kansas with a good aviation program for 3 semesters and got my private and inst. Then I realized after a discussion with some Allegheny pilots that I should get a 4 yr degree. So I transferred to a state school because of money and got my bs in business in an additional 4 semesters graduating summa cum laude.



Thus I got a four yr degree in 3.5 yrs (it would have been 3, but my aviation credits didn't transfer) Here's how I did it, and is important advice: I tested out of classes with CLEP. I also took an extra class each semester. I never took summer classes. And I maintained a very active social life... too active to be exact, I am currently facing criminal charges because of a innocent college prank, but that's another story on another thread. So if you have the ability, and want to take a semester worth of classes over the summers, you could get a 4 yr degree in 2 calendar years.



Goose is absolutely right - if you are older, you are considered independent, and the fed pell grant will pay for most of the costs of a state school. I was a freshmen at 22, and I think the independent age is 23, but you can find out on the FAFSA form.



Another important tidbit: I joined a C-150 club and got my hours in for MUCH cheaper than any other way. Riddle would be great, but you might end up like me and transfer due to coming to your senses and realizing how much unnecessary debt your going into.



Hope you find some of that helpful. You are way ahead of where I was at your age with doing your research and having focus and goals.



And for those of you that complain about spelling errors (lawfly etc.) get with the times.. I too don't like errors, but you need to realize that spelling is not an issue on the net. There is a time and place for correct spelling, but an internet forum does not require the time and/or effort of correct spelling. Now that I may have insulted you, lawfly I could use some advice. If I have a misdemeanor on my record would that prevent me from going to law school? How about a summary offense?

 

[bobbysamd]

Spelling

And for those of you that complain about spelling errors (lawfly etc.) get with the times.. I too don't like errors, but you need to realize that spelling is not an issue on the net. There is a time and place for correct spelling, but an internet forum does not require the time and/or effort of correct spelling . . . .

It's only your credibility, that's all. If you are sloppy about spelling, capitalization, etc., it calls into question your attention to detail, thoroughness, etc., graduating summa notwithstanding.