Thought about union airlines

[LiketheLeftSeat]

Union is to unite correct? To unite people under something they have in common. Shouldnt the "union" that represents so many pilots that pay dues "unite" them under something common. If a CRJ900, ERJ145, 737, etc pilot makes a certain amount of money for that given aircraft for 1,2,3 years respectively shouldnt there be an industry standard that the union holds the industry too? You are essentially getting paid for the amount of seats you are responsible for. Shouldnt there be industry standards for aircraft so that a 90 seat pilot shouldnt make less than a 50 seat pilot because they work at different companies. Professional athletes are represented by a union and they go to the league not individual teams for minimum pay for rookies etc... The "union" needs to truly unite and make industry standards then there wouldnt be so much cut throat activity. Otherwise why have a union and why have a union if people will still cross picket lines to work or join non union spinoffs of the same company.

 

[Donsa320]

Union is to unite correct? To unite people under something they have in common. Shouldnt the "union" that represents so many pilots that pay dues "unite" them under something common. If a CRJ900, ERJ145, 737, etc pilot makes a certain amount of money for that given aircraft for 1,2,3 years respectively shouldnt there be an industry standard that the union holds the industry too? You are essentially getting paid for the amount of seats you are responsible for. Shouldnt there be industry standards for aircraft so that a 90 seat pilot shouldnt make less than a 50 seat pilot because they work at different companies. Professional athletes are represented by a union and they go to the league not individual teams for minimum pay for rookies etc... The "union" needs to truly unite and make industry standards then there wouldnt be so much cut throat activity. Otherwise why have a union and why have a union if people will still cross picket lines to work or join non union spinoffs of the same company.

I think that your basic premise is faulty. Airline pilots do not get paid on a basis of responsibility. The pay, over the years, has been for productivity. That is; the more seats and/or the higher the speed, then the greater the productivity. After that is established we get to what CAN the company pay. Then we get to what WILL the company pay. Finally, the Collective Bargaining Agreement, for each individual company, is what YOU get paid.

DC

 

[atlcrashpad]

I think that your basic premise is faulty. Airline pilots do not get paid on a basis of responsibility. The pay, over the years, has been for productivity. That is; the more seats and/or the higher the speed, then the greater the productivity. After that is established we get to what CAN the company pay. Then we get to what WILL the company pay. Finally, the Collective Bargaining Agreement, for each individual company, is what YOU get paid.

DC

Some airlines figured out a cost saver by paying "by the pilot seat" meaning Left seat = X or Right seat = Y. This saves on training cost. There is no incentive for a pilot to move from their current aircraft and risk a "Bust" on a ride. UPS, AirTran and several other practice this. SWA has just one "Type".

My thoughts are that this is going to be the trend for the future.

 

[atlcrashpad]

There is nothing "Union or Uniting" about ALPA. They represent the Major/Legacy guys more than they represent the Regional/Commuter guys. It is an Economic issue, 2% of $150K or 2% of $55K. DAL has 6-7 thousand pilots paying their 2%. ASA has 1800 pilots paying 2%. Who pays more? Who gets more? Simple, you get what you pay for. But it is not fair when YOUR representing union will slash YOUR throat for the sake of the higher dues paying members.

 

[Paladin]

Also, according to the idea of being paid according to responsibility...

747CA 300pax x 1 leg per day = 300pax responsibility.
E145CA 50pax x 6 legs per day = 300 pax responsibility.

The responsibility argument never made a whole lot of sense to me. Especially when you factor in the amount of TOs and landings performed during the RJ Captains average day. The Intl. 747 CA might make 4 or 5 landings a Month.

 

[BigHangar]

Also, according to the idea of being paid according to responsibility...

747CA 300pax x 1 leg per day = 300pax responsibility.
E145CA 50pax x 6 legs per day = 300 pax responsibility.

The responsibility argument never made a whole lot of sense to me. Especially when you factor in the amount of TOs and landings performed during the RJ Captains average day. The Intl. 747 CA might make 4 or 5 landings a Month.

Damn, I just had to jump in and say that I hope you are not doing 6 legs a day on the E145, are you? It seems that 6 legs a day is Beech 1900 flying.

 

[Donsa320]

Also, according to the idea of being paid according to responsibility...

747CA 300pax x 1 leg per day = 300pax responsibility.
E145CA 50pax x 6 legs per day = 300 pax responsibility.

The responsibility argument never made a whole lot of sense to me. Especially when you factor in the amount of TOs and landings performed during the RJ Captains average day. The Intl. 747 CA might make 4 or 5 landings a Month.

Let's see 300 people x 5,000 mi leg for the 74 capt is 1,500,000 seat miles whilst the 300 people on the RJ at say 200 mi average trip length is 60,000 seat miles. And the 74 gets down to 9 cts a seat mile or so while the RJ is about 15 cts. Productivity rules.

The old pay rates were based on pegged speed, gross weight and mileage. Now it is just a dollar figure but it is still arrived at in the same basic way...productivity.

DC

 

[pilotyip]

If it is pay by responsibility why do box haulers at UPS and FedEs make more than people haulers?

 

[FN FAL]

Save the algebra for balancing the checkbook.

Union employees get paid based on what they can negotiate.

Non union employees get paid based on the position they can negotiate.

It's that simple.

 

[DoinTime]

If a CRJ900, ERJ145, 737, etc pilot makes a certain amount of money for that given aircraft for 1,2,3 years respectively shouldnt there be an industry standard that the union holds the industry too?

ALPA set the current system of different contracts for different carriers back in the '30's and '40's. In the regulated era of this industry this was a wise choice and it allowed to a rapid escalation in pay and benefits as pilot groups could effectively "leap frog" each other every time a contract came due. Since the carrier had no problem passing these costs on to the customer and bankruptcy was never seriously considered it was allowed to perpetuate in order to ensure labor peace.

Now that the industry is deregulated this system is no longer effective as it tends to work in reverse with carriers that get into financial trouble (most often called "the race to the bottom"). Unfortunately Pandora's box is open and it will likely never close. ALPA does not represent enough of the industry to ever regain the required control to make it happen.

As long as pilot groups such as American, Southwest, Airtran, UPS, CHQ, ect. define pilot unity only as it applies to their airline true unity will never exist and the race to the bottom will continue.