Those Crazy Sweedish Dash Drivers! (gear collapse)

[Quimby]

Let's see....

Both engines should have been secured prior to touchdown. This is not only for the safety of the passengers, but to reduce damge to the aircraft.

and,

The landing was made with poor technique, allowing the aircraft to contact the runway extremely hard. Much harder than should be considered for an unsafe gear situation.

I hate to say it myself, but it was a botched job. That aircraft could have been landed on the centerline with minimal damage. Instead, it took a hard right after an uncontrolled touchdown and departed the runway.

what's the number on your monday morning q-back jersey?

 

[The_Russian]

what's the number on your monday morning q-back jersey?

I wear #15.

Enjoy the discussion.

 

[Wiggums]

Russian, can you consistently grease it on? Under pressure? Even if they had made a better landing would it have mattered? Once the spoilers came up the gear would have probably collapsed anyways.

If you shut down the engines in the flare you are relying on a whole bunch of backup systems in an aircraft that already has problems. If the gear didn't collapse now you have to rely on backup hyd for braking and steering? What about the spoilers, will they work on backup hyd? Does the PA or radios work with no engines or APU running?

Why would you operate outside of the QRH? What at your company allows to make up your own procedures in an emergency?

 

[The_Russian]

Russian, can you consistently grease it on? Under pressure?

Yep, I have the Channel 7 news video to prove it.

Even if they had made a better landing would it have mattered? Once the spoilers came up the gear would have probably collapsed anyways.

Are you saying they cant disable the spoilers? Either way, that is their decision to meet the needs of the situation. The gear collapsing is not the problem here. The problem is the fragmenting prop and the complete loss of control.

If you shut down the engines in the flare you are relying on a whole bunch of backup systems in an aircraft that already has problems. If the gear didn't collapse now you have to rely on backup hyd for braking and steering? What about the spoilers, will they work on backup hyd? Does the PA or radios work with no engines or APU running?

Set up the hydraulics to run on APU or battery power. Same with the PA. The gear has overcenter lock and will hold on the respective gear if you have a green light. Once again the problem is damage, fire, and injury. Not the other systems.

Why would you operate outside of the QRH? What at your company allows to make up your own procedures in an emergency?

I wouldn't be. Even if I was, I can do what is nessecary to meet the extent of the emergency.

 

[flyburg]

Well, I guess your entitled to your opinion. I think I see almost all things differently than you.

I think the touchdown isn't all that hard, you think it is, who's right? etc, etc

I am curious though, you say both turboprops you flew recommended the engines to be shut down prior to touchdown but a little later you admit you have to check the beech 1900 as you haven't flown it for a while.

I gotta admit, I haven't flown the J31 and saab for a long time but I know for a fact that the Fokker 50 QRH directs you to shut down the engines immediatetely after touchdown, and as far as the SF340 and J31, I'm pretty sure they are the same.

Enough of this for me though, who cares, every time there is an accident, somebody feels the need to start critisizing and give opinions on how they would have done it differently...good luck with that.

Allready regret having even responded!

 

[The_Russian]

I am curious though, you say both turboprops you flew recommended the engines to be shut down prior to touchdown but a little later you admit you have to check the beech 1900 as you haven't flown it for a while.

What I meant by that was the exact wording. I thought that is what you were asking for. I will check it out for you.

 

[Wiggums]

Are you saying they cant disable the spoilers?

So you think that the best procedure is the shutdown the engines and disable to spoilers? Plus you have to grease in on also? Then stop with no reverse and on backup hyd? How much should we multiple the landing distance by, 4,5,6 times? What is the gear hadn't collapsed and they went off the end using that plan?

 

[The_Russian]

So you think that the best procedure is the shutdown the engines and disable to spoilers? Plus you have to grease in on also? Then stop with no reverse and on backup hyd? How much should we multiple the landing distance by, 4,5,6 times? What is the gear hadn't collapsed and they went off the end using that plan?

It's a turboprop, not a 200,000 lb jet aircraft.

If the gear does collapse, friction with the runway will stop the aircraft. This is where my concern is. Always brief and fly it like it WILL collapse.

and,

If the gear doesn't collapse:
1. Pick a suitable, i.e., longest runway. (prior)
2. Vref at the numbers.
3. Brakes on hydraulics with battery or apu power. or, use emergency brake if available.
4. Aerodynamic braking.

You should have this briefed and set up prior to landing.

 

[Little Bubba]

Russian,

How about following the QRH?

 

[Junkflyer]

I'm sure the Russian would have greased that Dc-10 on in Sioux City if only she was the captain instead of Al Haynes.

 

[The_Russian]

It appears as if I am the only one NOT taking crazy pills today.

Watch the video. Compare will all other successful gear up/gear unsafe landings. You will see the difference.

 

[The_Russian]

Russian,

How about following the QRH?

Um, this really has nothing to do with the QRH. The QRH can give recommendations, but it cannot teach you the technique nessecary to safely guide the aircraft through a safe landing. Nor can the QRH adapt itself to environmental issues surrounding the emergency.

What you must be thinking of is the procedures in the QRH prior to touchdown. I am not insisting that you skip those steps. Like I said before, this is beyond those procedures, in the touchdown phase.

I am not quite understanding why you think it is wrong to secure the engines prior to a suspected unsafe touchdown. Why would you keep the props at max RPM?

 

[bizzum]

Um, this really has nothing to do with the QRH. The QRH can give recommendations, but it cannot teach you the technique nessecary to safely guide the aircraft through a safe landing. Nor can the QRH adapt itself to environmental issues surrounding the emergency.

What you must be thinking of is the procedures in the QRH prior to touchdown. I am not insisting that you skip those steps. Like I said before, this is beyond those procedures, in the touchdown phase.

I am not quite understanding why you think it is wrong to secure the engines prior to a suspected unsafe touchdown. Why would you keep the props at max RPM?

I have never flown the Q400, but have about 1000hrs in the 300, 200, 100. I have flown with guys that have 20,000 hours in the Dash, and STILL can not grease it on. It is a VERY stiff legged machine, and unless you have a wet runway or snow, you are gonna feel it. Assuming the systems are similar in the 400 as the rest, If you shut down both motors, you will have no rudder. You will also only have enough brake accumulation for 3 pumps on the brakes. If I remember right, there are no electric hydraulic pumps, so if you lose both engines you are SOL, so to speak. Also, the props are composite, you can bend them with your two hands. If you hit the ground, they will fragment. Those guys had no way of knowing that the gear was going to collape, and turning that thing into a 60,000lb glider as a "precaution" would be absolutely foolish IMO.

 

[venr122]

My thoughts (which won't be anywhere near as professional or correct as the Russian)

That gear looked awfully normal to me, and looking out the window they probably thought it was a FALSE unsafe indication.....which happens a whole lot more than an actual unsafe gear. They sure would have looked silly, and probably even secondguessed by you had they shut two perfectly normal motors down. I don't think the Dash 8's have APU,s but not sure about the -400.

I agree they probably could have gotten a little more of the crab out prior to touchdown....but knowing what we know (which is Jack SHT) I would have done it the same way

good thing I never make mistakes

 

[The_Russian]

I have never flown the Q400, but have about 1000hrs in the 300, 200, 100. I have flown with guys that have 20,000 hours in the Dash, and STILL can not grease it on. It is a VERY stiff legged machine, and unless you have a wet runway or snow, you are gonna feel it. Assuming the systems are similar in the 400 as the rest, If you shut down both motors, you will have no rudder. You will also only have enough brake accumulation for 3 pumps on the brakes. If I remember right, there are no electric hydraulic pumps, so if you lose both engines you are SOL, so to speak. Also, the props are composite, you can bend them with your two hands. If you hit the ground, they will fragment. Those guys had no way of knowing that the gear was going to collape, and turning that thing into a 60,000lb glider as a "precaution" would be absolutely foolish IMO.

There must be a manual reversion to use the rudder. Otherwise, that aircraft would not have been certified. The problem is that the props will fragment, possible killing or injuring passengers and crew members in the aircraft.

Those guys had EVERY reason to believe that the gear was going to collapse. You must treat every unsafe gear indication as the real thing, even if there is a chance that the gear is ok. The aircraft would not have been gliding for more than a few seconds. I have stated many times that the proper time to secure is in the flare closer to touchdown.