This Just In.... General Lee Against The Merger

[General Lee]

General why don't you get involved in your union and make a differance? Or is Flight info the only place you think people will listen to you? Let it go, and welcome to the ride!

Who says I don't do a lot with the union? You really have no clue. I might be Lee Moak!

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General....Go to the kitchen. get a brown paper lunch bag out of the cabinet.
Open the bag, sit down, place it over your nose and mouth and breath slooowwwwly. Now that you are no longer hyperventilating, some facts on LGA. Should (and that's a very big should) this deal go through the only thing Parker said he would get rid of that had anything to do with LGA was one of the shuttle operations. No where did he mention the other cities. Anyway I'm sure those flights are RJ flights anyway and not true mainline service. So sit down, relax and go gnaw on a drumstick.

Have a nice Thanksgiving

PHXFLYR


Still waiting for my red button

So, we would keep all 10 combined RJ flights per day from LGA to Greenville/Spartanberg? How would that benefit the passengers on that route or numerous others where competition keeps the fares affordable? Regardless, going from two to one carrier means less choice. You can't get around that... The DOJ and Congress will see that.

Have you seen the completely overlapping route networks between Delta and USAirways? Was there much overlap between AWA and USAirways besides LAS-PHL and PHX-PIT/PHL?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Dam General with just me you had it easy but you have messed around and got the PHXFLYR after you!!! Look out because it only gets better from here. Btw get that gear handle for me will you:laugh:

Just a joke so Delta boys and girls don't get all bent...

WD.

 

[PHXFLYR]

So, we would keep all 10 combined RJ flights per day from LGA to Greenville/Spartanberg? How would that benefit the passengers on that route or numerous others where competition keeps the fares affordable? Regardless, going from two to one carrier means less choice. You can't get around that... The DOJ and Congress will see that.

Have you seen the completely overlapping route networks between Delta and USAirways? Was there much overlap between AWA and USAirways besides LAS-PHL and PHX-PIT/PHL?

Bye Bye--General Lee

I think Parker addressed the "less choice" argument by pointing out that the competitive landscape has changed since the last round of mergers. You have 3 low cost carriers,Air Tran,Southwest and JetBlue each one with lots of airplanes on order. If there is any reduction in overlap, I'm sure they'll be there to fill the void,thus giving the consumer the same number of choices they had previously. So I would have to say your overlap argument is rather weak.


PHXFLYR

 

[Rogue5]

After the merger goes down look for Jen Lee to say he never really read the terms of the merger proposal to see how good it really was and now claim that, actually, he always supported it...

 

[General Lee]

After the merger goes down look for Jen Lee to say he never really read the terms of the merger proposal to see how good it really was and now claim that, actually, he always supported it...

So, are you really taking away union jobs in CVG? Wow. You must feel great. Congrats on the $5 an hour extra for the 70 and 90 seater. Again, wow. Brad Holt will have a huge Christmas bonus. You will get a ham.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I think Parker addressed the "less choice" argument by pointing out that the competitive landscape has changed since the last round of mergers. You have 3 low cost carriers,Air Tran,Southwest and JetBlue each one with lots of airplanes on order. If there is any reduction in overlap, I'm sure they'll be there to fill the void,thus giving the consumer the same number of choices they had previously. So I would have to say your overlap argument is rather weak.


PHXFLYR

So, Southwest, Airtran, and Jetblue will go to FAY? Really? They will start service from LGA to CHS? When? Riiiiiight. Most of the LCCs will NOT go to the smaller communities, and there will be less choice. Parker is full of himself. If only DL and US go to a small community, and one leaves, that reduces choice. To say that Airtran, JB, or SW will fly from LGA to SAV is just guesswork. Consumers will have less choice, and the DOJ and Congress won't allow it.

Just take a look at the route maps. You don't see overlap? You don't? Why didn't Parker choose Northwest? They have hubs where US does not, they have the same type planes, and they wouldn't have to lose communities due to monopoly querries. Really, Parker must be on dope. He chose the wrong one to go after. If he went after DL to cut out the competition, then he will lose to the regulators and Congress. Plain and simple. Look at the last two successful mergers---US/AWA and AA/TWA. Virtually no overlap. TWA's JFK hub was in shambles, and both had one very weak carrier that was not making profits. DL has made profits the last two quarters, and we are trending upwards. Different indeed.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

So I would have to say your overlap argument is rather weak.


PHXFLYR

No, his overlap point is right on the money. This merger is about reducing competition plane and simple. When a competitor is removed, there is one less consumer option. It's that simple. Even if a LCC would eventually enter the market, and in many of these are markets they wouldn't enter, it doesn't change the fact that their is one less competitor and one less option for the consumer and we haven't even begun to address the Elephant in the center of the room, which is the additional consolidation this merger would provoke.

But just looking at this one merger, and ignoring the other which are sure to follow, this merger reduces competition in many small and medium sized cities.

Here is just a small example of communities that would lose competitive service all together:

Huntington
Lynchburg
Florence
Augusta
Wilmington

Here's a small list of communities, along with the percent of traffic that would be dominated by the new "Delta" with virtually no other choices for the consumer.

CHS 63%
CHA 69%
AVL 74%
BGR 75%
BGM 65%
ERI 63%
CRW 69%
GNV 85%

Remember, that's just a small sample.

This merger isn't about creating a new entity with broader market reach, like HP/US, this merger is about eliminating competion.

 

[General Lee]

I think Parker addressed the "less choice" argument by pointing out that the competitive landscape has changed since the last round of mergers. You have 3 low cost carriers,Air Tran,Southwest and JetBlue each one with lots of airplanes on order. If there is any reduction in overlap, I'm sure they'll be there to fill the void,thus giving the consumer the same number of choices they had previously. So I would have to say your overlap argument is rather weak.


PHXFLYR

Why haven't Southwest, JB, or Airtran started their own service into Huntington, Charleston West, Florence (SC), Wilmington NC, Lynchburg, etc? Can they not get slots? So, if they don't elect to go in there, and half of the competition goes away with a potential merger, will the communities lose out on choice? Would Southwest go into Lynchburg? Doubt it, but Parker thinks so.... That argument is dead on, and I would like to see you explain why those three LCCs haven't started service there already? Did Airtran try CRJs with AirWhiskey? How did that go? Do JB or SW have RJs that could fly to those small cities that probably couldn't support an E190? Can you answer that?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PHXFLYR]

No to what? You haven't noticed or you don't know what the future holds??


WD.

Both
PHXFLYR

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Could you imagine trying to land a 737 at Charlie West.... Wow GL were you ever in the regionals. That place used to give me the creeps.

 

[VeeOne]

Could you imagine trying to land a 737 at Charlie West.... Wow GL were you ever in the regionals. That place used to give me the creeps.

What's wrong with a 737 in CW??? Piedmont (the REAL Piedmont) used to do that all the time before they merged with USAir. Besides, I'd rather do it in a 7-3 than in an underpowered, runway sucking 50 seater.

 

[Gofish]

Could you imagine trying to land a 737 at Charlie West.... Wow GL were you ever in the regionals. That place used to give me the creeps.

I am there now...and yes...creepage intact Grog.

 

[General Lee]

Could you imagine trying to land a 737 at Charlie West.... Wow GL were you ever in the regionals. That place used to give me the creeps.

I actually flew in there one night with a friend in a C414. The next day I took a better look and almost lost it. Yikes.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

You guys need to take a bath in vagisil if your scared of Charlie West. Matter of fact you need to soak in it for a while.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

CW airport is atop a small mountain at coonskin national park. Spent much of my childhood there and would love to watch the C130's come in there. Haven't been there as a pilot myself but would love to do it.

WD.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Well, my yeast infection was bothering me a lot back then, I remember a lot of shifting in my seat on the approach; so you're saying vagisil would have helped.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

This is way to adult for me this morning:laugh:

WD

 

[PHXFLYR]

I actually flew in there one night with a friend in a C414. The next day I took a better look and almost lost it. Yikes.

Bye Bye--General Lee

You have friends?????? Who knew....???????


PHXFLYR

 

[General Lee]

You have friends?????? Who knew....???????


PHXFLYR

She was hot. It was great.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Spooky 2]

Watch out Delta, just incase it does really happen

Since USAir is “acquiring” Delta in this deal, assuming it ever goes through, perhaps USAir should treat the Delta pilots like the Delta pilots treated the Pan Am pilots when they were “acquired” back in 1989/90. Delta pilots were only to happy to banish any thoughts towards fair and equitable seniority integration when the word was “acquire” as opposed to merger. Even today, those pilots from Pan Am are referred to in legalize as “acquired” as opposed to merged pilots as are the former Western Airlines pilots. Delta did not take the most senior Pan Am pilots in any order of seniority. If you were a B747 Capt at Pan Am you simply were not "invited" to come aboard at Delta. Instead they dropped down to the A310 pilot group and started there first and next B727 pilots. All potential acquired pilots were screened for “suitability” to join the ranks of Delta’s finest. If you had been a problem child at Pan Am, sick leave abuse and or other aberrant behavioral problem you simply were not hired. The one exception, which proves that airlines eat their young, was the group of Pan Am pilots known as the “Dirty Thirty”. These pilots who all were senior B747 Capts. at Pan Am managed to convince someone at the last minute to run a B727 school just for them. It was a very compressed school and at the end, they again became B727 Capts, sorta like a quicke sex change, thus allowing them to come over to Delta and resume their natural seniority positions on the Delta list. The unethical, unprincipled way that the Delta pilot group treated the Pan Am pilots is one of the sorriest chapters in the annals of pilot greed. The General and all of his ilk should watch carefully and see if the USAir pilot group remembers that sorid affair and decides that it might work for them as well.

 

[General Lee]

Since USAir is “acquiring” Delta in this deal, assuming it ever goes through, perhaps USAir should treat the Delta pilots like the Delta pilots treated the Pan Am pilots when they were “acquired” back in 1989/90. Delta pilots were only to happy to banish any thoughts towards fair and equitable seniority integration when the word was “acquire” as opposed to merger. Even today, those pilots from Pan Am are referred to in legalize as “acquired” as opposed to merged pilots as are the former Western Airlines pilots. Delta did not take the most senior Pan Am pilots in any order of seniority. If you were a B747 Capt at Pan Am you simply were not "invited" to come aboard at Delta. Instead they dropped down to the A310 pilot group and started there first and next B727 pilots. All potential acquired pilots were screened for “suitability” to join the ranks of Delta’s finest. If you had been a problem child at Pan Am, sick leave abuse and or other aberrant behavioral problem you simply were not hired. The one exception, which proves that airlines eat their young, was the group of Pan Am pilots known as the “Dirty Thirty”. These pilots who all were senior B747 Capts. at Pan Am managed to convince someone at the last minute to run a B727 school just for them. It was a very compressed school and at the end, they again became B727 Capts, sorta like a quicke sex change, thus allowing them to come over to Delta and resume their natural seniority positions on the Delta list. The unethical, unprincipled way that the Delta pilot group treated the Pan Am pilots is one of the sorriest chapters in the annals of pilot greed. The General and all of his ilk should watch carefully and see if the USAir pilot group remembers that sorid affair and decides that it might work for them as well.

Say what? Nice diatribe. IF, and only if, this would ever materialize, ALPA merger policy would go into effect. Pan Am was purchased in parts, and in fact some Pan Am pilots did very well at DL(the Dirty 30). They got right back into the Left seat of the biggest plane we had based in JFK. So, some Pan Am guys did very well. Pan Am had 4 parts to it--Asia (went to UAL), Europe and JFK (DL), the Pan Am Shuttle (DL), and some domestic flying on A300s, 737s, and 727s. (went away) When pieces of airlines are bought by several carriers, it is tough to blend pilots in. But, ALPA will take care of it, if it happens. And, PARTS of Delta will not be bought, only the whole thing. If someone wants to sell the DL Shuttle (9 planes), then that would be insignificant--with a fleet of over 400 mainline planes. We got rid of 30 737-200s this year alone. Now, go off and rant somewhere else.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Spooky 2]

General your simply not worth the time. Hopefully some of the others on this board will realize just how self serving the Delta pilot group handled this situation. Nuf said.

 

[General Lee]

General your simply not worth the time. Hopefully some of the others on this board will realize just how self serving the Delta pilot group handled this situation. Nuf said.

Only Tom Goodman would remember. (he is retired) We probably don't have any Pan Am pilots left, and most of the guys who witnessed it are probably gone too. (we had 2300 pilots retire in 18 months) But, you seem like you want to hold a grudge....watch that blood pressure spike.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PHXFLYR]

She was hot. It was great.

Bye Bye--General Lee

So was yours......


PHXFLYR

 

[Pat Fabin]

General,

Actually, lots of Pan Am pilots (Pan Am, National, Ransome) up here in New York on the MD88 & -800. Most did not retire early because they had a severely diminished pension due to the aquisition.

On a side note, its interesting that guys here form opinions of the ENTIRE Delta pilot group by observing the maybe 10 guys that post here.

Bizarre....back to lurking.

 

[Spooky 2]

My point was not to deminish the General's reputation or call into question his self serving positions but rather to point out that a large number of senior pilots at Pan Am got hosed in this combination. It would be as if USAir said, we are not interested in acquiring the Delta B777 or B767-400's as we can step away from those leases and by the way, we don't need any of those qualified crews either. Not exactly the way most crews would look at this when being taken over.

On the other hand, if this seems a fair and equitable way to conduct business, so be it as one of Delta's finest was fond of saying.

 

[GCAP]

Spooky 2 has it right. GL might want to look at exactly how the PanAm pilots were treated. DL protected the first 600 Capt. positions, then slotted "acquired pilots" on a 1 to 11 ratio down to the FE's, then stapled the rest behind phantom pilots who had not even been hired yet. Add that to the fact that PanAm pilots were constantly told that they were " lucky to have a job".

 

[FDJ2]

Since USAir is “acquiring” Delta in this deal, assuming it ever goes through, perhaps USAir should treat the Delta pilots like the Delta pilots treated the Pan Am pilots when they were “acquired” back in 1989/90.

DAL did not "acquire" Pan Am, or merge with Pan Am. DAL and Pan Am entered into a Acquisition Purchase Agreement (APA).

Delta did not take the most senior Pan Am pilots in any order of seniority. If you were a B747 Capt at Pan Am you simply were not "invited" to come aboard at Delta.

You might want to check your facts on who nixed the strict seniority system.

From the Second Circuit Decision:

"Pan Am rejected the strict seniority plan. Pan Am explained that it could not accept the long course proposal because: (1) there was insufficient time to train the requisite number of pilots before Delta's deadline; and (2) even if the training could be accomplished in time, training by seniority would decimate the ranks of senior Pan Am captains needed to continue Pan Am's operations after the sale.

That was a Pan Am decision, not a DAL MEC decision.

The unethical, unprincipled way that the Delta pilot group treated the Pan Am pilots is one of the sorriest chapters in the annals of pilot greed.

You might want to aim those guns at the Pan Am MEC and Pan Am management, they came up with the system for determining who would come over to DAL. Apparently there was a stampede to do so. So much so, that those pilots who couldn't come over to DAL sued ALPA. A handful of them settled with ALPA out of court, the rest had their lawsuit tossed out as a matter of law.

 

[slaquer5]

General your simply not worth the time. Hopefully some of the others on this board will realize just how self serving the Delta pilot group handled this situation. Nuf said.

Spooky there is no need to hope, I think I can speak for most saying that we all feel the way you do about DAL pilots in general. GL if you doubt what is being said just ask an old Western pilot at DAL.