this goes on, I guess

[skydiverdriver]

Brian

Take a look at 121.434, c1ii, "in the case of a transitioning pilot in command the check pilot serving as pilot in command may occupy the observers seat."

I dont' think the guy who wrote that was on crack. You will understand things a bit better when you have worked for an airline longer, as things might not be the way you were taught in flight school.

Good luck to all of you.

 

[utahpilot]

all I was saying was that I've seen this go on among CFI's who are looking to build their multi time. 4 ME rated pilots, two are MEIs. the two non-MEIs take turns flying in the left seat while the one MEI is in the front, the other in the back, each saying that they are giving dual in the light twin. all four log PIC for the entire flight.

seems to me, the MEI up front can log it all, the ME rated pilot in the right seat can log the time he is flying ONLY, and the dude in the back is, in fact, on crack to think he has anything to do with the flight or logging the time, even if he discusses ME procedures in the back with the other joker.

anyway, thanks for the responses

 

[utahpilot]

sorry, I mean the "ME rated pilot in the left seat can log ONLY the time he is flying" (not the time he is sitting in the back watching and discussing the flight with the other loser MEI

 

[ksu_aviator]

I'm putting an end to this discussion

I don't normally copy and paste the FAR's but this time I feel I have to. The situation the original post describe was a Part 91 flight in a Single Pilot, Multi-engine aircraft with 4 "Pilots" logging PIC time. Therefore, Part 61.51 says:

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

(1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person --

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

If you read this properly, the PIC in this case is the one manipulating the controls. The MEI can not log PIC time unless he/she was flying or the Left seater was under the hood, because the airplane only requires one pilot. From there, nobody in the back can log any time. They are not required crew. The only required crew was the left seat pilot and then only one other pilot is required if that left seat pilot was under the hood.

Get over the idea that you can log part 91 PIC time from the back seat. It just isn't legal. I don't care how many FAA forms or legal reviews you claim to have, its not legal.

 

[utahpilot]

don't have the FARs right here, but I'm pretty sure the MEI can log all the time since he is a qualified instructor giving dual, right?

 

[Speedtree]

Gray Areas

Specifics aside I believe there is a greater issue here, as alluded to in previous posts. I had a maintenance instructor once who preached on the subject of bending the rules. His point was that we are going to have these gray areas in certain cases, i.e. logging flight time. Different people see it differently. There is a line somewhere in the gray area and we can pick the regs apart until we find the most technically correct definition/interpretation and it will probably reflect our own personal biases. (We can usually bend the rules somewhat to get what we want). The actual line drawn somewhere in that grand expanse of gray is to be determined by an FAA inspector, the court, Airline interview board or whomever in authority you may find yourself explaining the situation to.

All that to say, let's look at our log term goals and the fact that we want to stay out of trouble. I agree we want to be able to make the most of our abilities and opportunities but it doesn't matter if the entity bringing down the ruling doesn't agree with us. I try to stay as far away from the middle of the gray area (or the invisible line to be crossed) and make sure I can explain what I did and why I did it.

If your attitude is "the end justifies the means" then cheat and pay the consequences. I pity you.

I would rather have more experience than my logbook shows and have people be impressed, than more in logbook than I have experience and people wondering why I'm not a better pilot.

Let's all do the right thing.

 

[jaybird]

You can log whatever you want. I logged .5 on my toilet this morning. You can seat 35A in a 767. If you are going to an interview with back seat PIC I dont think you will be there to long, but then again how will they know? It's up to you and your morals. Do what's right.

 

[skydiverdriver]

utah pilot

Okay, now I see the confusion. There are not two instructors on the plane. Neither are there four people, all logging time. The way it works is that two multi-rated pilots are up front, one under the hood. The one under the hood is logging sole-manipulator PIC, the one in the other front seat is logging safety pilot PIC, and the instructor sits in the back. This is legal and normal, although I have none of this type of time myself. An instructor does NOT have to have flight controls in front of him to give instruction, and with rated pilots, you rarely need to touch the controls anyway. I have a letter from the FAA that verifies this. My suggestion? If you don't want to do it, don't. I wouldn't worry about what other people do, though.

 

[skydiverdriver]

ksu aviator

The instructor is a required crewmember when giving instruction for a rating that the student does not hold. In this case, the student's are both multi rated, so he is instructing them on instruments and for their commercial. You also should be careful not to state what is legal and what is not, because there are a lot of regulations and there may be more to it than you know. Good luck to you.

 

[utahpilot]

I never said I was going along with this or that I was endorsing the practice. Just wanted to shed light on a situation I was exposed to and hear some insightful comments. thanks to those who replied. I agree with the idea of doing what's right and having a clear conscience.

 

[skydiverdriver]

You guys might want to take a look at part 1, definitions as well. Many airlines will only accept PIC turbine from this category, not sole manipulator as in part 91. Sole manipulator is NOT the only way to log pic, as when I fly, I can fly the plane and log sole manip, but I'm the SIC. The captain is the PIC and can log it as such, even when I'm working the controls.