Things I wish Pilots Knew about ATC

[7B2]

Thank you vector.
I'll definately tune in for the future threads.

 

[huncowboy]

I just don't know why we don't have to learn more about how the ATC does it. If you think about it there is barely something related to communications and ATC procedures compared to the trillion wx charts of which you will end up using a few only.

 

[Vector4fun]

Originally posted by NJA Capt

Hard to see in a jet (at an unfamiliar airport) at 600' 2 miles from the airport. Some aircraft like the C750 are very restricted in crosswinds (less than 4 degrees bank at times), that's why we ask on short final. Some airports don't locate windsocks anywhere near the landing threshold.


I understand. If you need to ask, do so. I just want you to understand what you're getting. What I give you may be 30 deg and 10 kts different than what the wind actually is at the threshold at the moment.



Why is it when we are vectored "for traffic" it is always toward the ONLY TCAS targets? Or even better.....We are told of passing traffic 15nm away (don't care), and are given no warning of the 767 that passes 2000' over my window (DO care!!)?



Two part answer. First, one of the first techniques we learn in radar is that's it's almost always easier to vector you to miss behind the other target. Trying to zoom you in front of another target is very difficult, unless the speed differences are really great. So, what do they teach everyone in the acadamy? If two aircraft are on crossing courses, and speeds are similar, turn one right at the second, and they miss with minimum safe distance. I know, sounds nuts, but works.

Second part of answer lies in Controller's Handbook, Chap 5, merging target procedures:


5-1-8. MERGING TARGET PROCEDURES

a. Except while they are established in a holding pattern, apply merging target procedures to all radar identified:

1. Aircraft at 10,000 feet and above.

2. Turbojet aircraft regardless of altitude.

3. Presidential aircraft regardless of altitude.

b. Issue traffic information to those aircraft listed in subpara a whose targets appear likely to merge unless the aircraft are separated by more than the appropriate vertical separation minima.

EXAMPLE-
"Traffic twelve o'clock, seven miles, eastbound, MD-80, at one seven thousand."

"United Sixteen and American Twenty-five, traffic twelve o'clock, one zero miles, opposite direction, eastbound seven twenty seven at flight level three three zero, westbound MD-Eighty at flight level three one zero."

c. If the pilot requests, vector his/her aircraft to avoid merging with the target of previously issued traffic.

NOTE-
Aircraft closure rates are so rapid that when applying merging target procedures, controller issuance of traffic must be commenced in ample time for the pilot to decide if a vector is necessary.

d. If unable to provide vector service, inform the pilot.



So in the case you mentioned. If it's a VFR target say twelve miles away, with an un-verified Mode C altitude, I cannot assume you are separated by "more than the appropriate vertical separation minima. " So you're at 140, descending to 100, and I call traffic "Eleven O'Clock, twelve miles, altitude indicates three thousand five hundred." Seems silly, but God only knows what the target's actuall alttude is. And I'm supposed to issue it it time for you to decide if you'd like a vector around it. In the second case, I know the B767 is separated by more than the appropriate minima, (1000') so I need not issue it.

I think it actually gets pretty silly and confusing to pilots at times. Controllers too. We got guys saying "TCAS Traffic, eleven o'clock, four miles....." I'm not sure what "TCAS Traffic" is supposed to be, except we're differentiating between "Sit up and pay attention" traffic, and Gee Whiz info...





TCAS RAs are inhibited at approx 1200' AGL and shouldn't give RAs. 95% of GA traffic and half of the corporate world have no idea what we are talking about (TCAS). There is no FAA guidance to maintain "TCAS" separation.

I know, I was just trying to remind the folks that don't know, that they should give the TCAS equipped traffic a little extra room. We have a dozen TCAS RAs a year between aircraft that were legally visually separated. I've told folks to maintain visual separation, and then had the targets completely merge at nearly the same altitude. Some folks figure 200' is as good as two miles; and it often was before TCAS...

Hope that helped!

 

[English]

Great post, Vector4fun. Thanks. I learned some things.

Now, some things controllers ought to know...I routinely used to have controllers tell me to maintain 280 or greater in the climb leaving SNA. A CJ (CE525) will not go faster than 263 indicated unless I want to blast off the beer horn. My point...not all Citations are the same.

Thanks for the informative post!

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Re: Re: Things I wish Pilots Knew about ATC

I'm glad somebody said that. I'm trying to break some F/O's of the habit.

Great info, by the way! (I didn't know tower wind data was an average.)

Now, on the flip side, something (some) controllers don't know: when I'm in my fully loaded CRJ struggling through 250, and you ask me if I can be at 330 in three minutes or less...the answer is always no!

She's purrty, but she ain't sexy

 

[FracCapt]

I know, I was just trying to remind the folks that don't know, that they should give the TCAS equipped traffic a little extra room. We have a dozen TCAS RAs a year between aircraft that were legally visually separated.

Thanks for all the insight from a controllers perspective. Just a couple weeks ago, I was headed into LGA, talking to New York App. We were at 10,000', then cleared to descend to 9,000'. We had been watching a target on TCAS that was at 9600', crossing right to left, directly under us. We spotted him when he was about 3-4 miles away, and watched him. We were cleared to descend when he was approximately 1 mile from us, prior to crossing paths. We asked the controller if he was talking to said traffic, and he said no. He apparently did not see him on radar until we were cleared to descend(well outside of the Class B, but talking to NYC approach, and the controller said he "just popped up on radar"). We were in and out of IMC at 10,000, with bases at 9500'(based on our descent). I was absolutely pissed that this pilot was IMC(or, at the very least, not VFR legal by any means) and passed DIRECTLY under us. When we were on downwind still talking to approach, I was asked to call the Approach supervisor after landing(and given a phone number). When I talked to him, he asked me if I wanted to "file charges against the controller for a near miss"....WTF? I knew the controller was not at fault(the other pilot was), but the supervisor said he would have to review the tapes with the controller and discipline him/her because a "loss of separation" alarm went off. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Of course I don't want to file charges against a controller for something not his fault! If it had been 2 IFR aircraft, it would have been a different story...but we saw the VFR aircraft(during the short time we were not IMC), and told ATC we would delay the descent for a few miles due to the traffic. We didn't expect anything more out of it, but apparently the supervisor was required to do something(according to him during our conversation) due to the "loss of separation". I hope that controller doesn't get in any trouble over the incident...it was definitely not his fault....but it makes me seriously doubt the integrity of the system(based on the supervisors "required" action).

 

[Alchemy]

Hmmm, yesterday I was flying into SAT from AUS VFR at 3000 feet (2500 AGL) and the controller told me he needed me at 3500 feet.

I was wondering why at the time, since there didn't seem to be any other traffic around, but reading this explained it...

 

[NJA Capt]

Thanks

Vector4fun,
Thank you very much for taking the time to answer our questions. It's not always appropriate to ask on the radio, and we have short attention spans on the ground.

TCAS is a wonderful thing that at times scares the you know what out of ya. (NY metro area below 5000' and the whole state of FL below 10,000'. If you have Mode C, please turn it on. Those little blue diamonds on our screen look better with your altitude beside it. (And our front windows aren't as large as yours )

Zoom climbs in the Skyhawk and Cherokees make TCAS go crazy in busy arrival areas. (Caldwell and Morristown, NJ.....South FL )

By the way here is a link for the TCAS-RA altitudes. Bottom of page 3.

http://www.faa.gov/AVR/AFS/FSAW/FSW0102A.DOC

 

[darien]

how often does this happen

I was flying through class b orlando airspace on ifr I see this mooney cross in front of me in a climb within a mile. I asked controller if he has him and he says no a couple of minutes he poppes up on this screen.
I was wondering do you think was this guy climbing/cutting through Class b with his transponder off then switched it on

 

[FlyChicaga]

This is a great thread. I wish we have more informative posts like this on these boards. Great stuff. I'll definitely keep it tucked away in my knowledge bank from now on.

The TCAS stuff is particularly good. Anyone ever had an RA that told you to fly towards the target since the transponder in that aircraft was indicating an altitude which was 300 or more feet off? Had that happen once, and boy were we pissed.