There are other jobs out there

[panampilot]

Help me understand something. I have been reading this message board for awhile now and I hear of a lot of people searching for jobs in this tough downturn we're in.

What I don't get is so many of these people are so set on getting to the airlines. It's the airlines or bust. I was one of those people. After reading about the games management plays with the pilot groups, the contracts getting resigned, the alter egos popping up to scare the piss out of ya, etc...... I often wonder why people are still willing to work for piss, get treated like trash, and have poor QOL.

After researching many options I have found that there are a couple of 135 operators out there that are actively hiring. Granted, these jobs may not be the most glamorous jobs but in most cases you're paid much better, work better hours, and you don't deal with as much instability as the regionals. Is it just because people want to fly a brand new jet? I can't imagine this is the only reason people are attracted to 121 operations.

Let's take Airnet for example. You work 4-5 days a week (you are home in your own bed everyday), you have weekends off and most bank holidays off, your potential for pay starting off can be in the $30,000 - $40,000 range (almost double the regionals), and it seems that it is a very stable company. Granted, you're not flying a brand new jet but the potential to get in a new Lear 60 or Challenger is possible down the road.

Now before everyone jumps on me. You can see my profile and I admit that I definately am very new to this whole industry. I am just truly trying to understand why people would not consider this alternative route. Are people just deciding their careers with blinders on or am I totally missing something?

 

[banned username 2]

After you fly Charter for a while, check out Corporate Aviation, you might be pleasantly surprised, and if you get on with a decent company you'll be flying newer and nicer planes than you would at most airlines.

 

[avbug]

Or you could just take up flying skydivers. The airplanes aren't typically very nice, but the benifits package includes a 40 year old demilled moth eaten pilot-rig parachute.

Plus, no uniform, and no tie!

But seriously, you mean there are other jobs aside from an airline seat? That's simply amazing. Wow. A revealation. Unbelievable, but now that I see it in print, I know it is true. And we were here. All of us, here, when it came through. The news...other jobs...not just flying for an airline. Dare I say it? No. Maybe, yes. Yes, it's a stroke of genius. Look other places for employment! This is fantastic! Thank you for sharing that.

 

[labbats]

Airlines interest me as a way to help pay back my parents' loans to me for the immense funds draining out of my bank account. They can get free tickets.

 

[rettofly]

After researching many options I have found that there are a couple of 135 operators out there that are actively hiring. Granted, these jobs may not be the most glamorous jobs but in most cases you're paid much better, work better hours, and you don't deal with as much instability as the regionals. Is it just because people want to fly a brand new jet? I can't imagine this is the only reason people are attracted to 121 operations.

Let's take Airnet for example. You work 4-5 days a week (you are home in your own bed everyday), you have weekends off and most bank holidays off, your potential for pay starting off can be in the $30,000 - $40,000 range (almost double the regionals), and it seems that it is a very stable company. Granted, you're not flying a brand new jet but the potential to get in a new Lear 60 or Challenger is possible down the road.

Only problem I have is the notion of leaving a perfectly good, almost-paid-for home in an area I like, and having my wife start over again. I'm a freight dog who got into jets and then laid off.

 

[FL240]

JOBS

Ya there are jobs out there. I for one have put airlines last on my list as far as where I want to go. (Nothing against them, just like corporate). The main problems I see now is that alot of charter operators are getting people to PFT. If thats not the case you had better have a type and an 8410 or you simply will not be condidered. If you manage to get an interview...good luck because there are probably ten other guys interviewing that are probably more qualified (or just look better on paper) or that have a type or alot of time in the aircraft. I can say that this has been one of the most frustrating years for me, being an out of work pilot, and yes there are jobs out there, but they are not easy to attain. (Believe me I have been trying!)

 

[Bernoulli]

I have a bunch of friends who fly for the major airlines. It's not the big aircraft that is appealing to me... It's their lifestyle.
These friends of mine are able to manipulate their monthly schedules so they are able to get two weeks off without using their holiday time. They pull this off all the time. They have so much time off they don't know what to do with themselves. So what do they do with all their time off? They go travel practically anywhere in the world for practically nothing. The first years pay is pretty bad but after their first year they start making decent money. When they go to work they do not rot in front of a desk, they fly airplanes. Obviously these guys spent years groveling and paying their dues but each one of them said it's worth it. If you fly corporate or for some 135 outfit you don't get the long term pay off and the free flying benefits. Of course, all the above is from my low time point of view.

 

[panampilot]

I understand that with the major airlines you can manipulate your schedule to get a chunk of time off. That is very possible but is that a reason to put up with the regional life for a decade?

The flight benefits are definately attractive but after talking to other pilots they aren't always the easiest to use, especially during the holidays.

One could very easily go to a 135 operator build the same amount of time and then jump to a major. Plus during your time there you are getting paid much better, better QOL, and you're not just a number to mgmt. The end goal can still be the same but just another way of getting there.

When I tell people that I plan on going the 135 way they look down upon it like it's taking the low road. I fully disagree and am quite happy with my decision.

 

[English]

If you skip the regional route and go charter, you'll definitely make better money, and likely you'll upgrade into the left seat of something turbine sooner. However, the pay cut you'll take going from charter to first year major will HURT. If you are going from a regional to a major it's a step up, unless you are a senior captain at said regional.

 

[banned username 2]

I have a bunch of friends who fly for the major airlines. It's not the big aircraft that is appealing to me... It's their lifestyle.
These friends of mine are able to manipulate their monthly schedules so they are able to get two weeks off without using their holiday time. They pull this off all the time. They have so much time off they don't know what to do with themselves.

If you haven't noticed, all the airlines are changing their work rules dramatically to increase productivity and drive down costs. The days of hardly working and collecting a big paycheck are over.

So what do they do with all their time off? They go travel practically anywhere in the world for practically nothing.

I think you should ask around on this board how easy it is to "travel the world for free with your family"... I think you will be shocked at the answers.

When they go to work they do not rot in front of a desk, they fly airplanes.

So do the rest of the pilots here...

If you fly corporate you don't get the long term pay off

Are you sure??? I know a lot of very well off Corporate Pilots... Geez, I'm not doing too bad myself... and today I am actually doing better (financially) than if I would have started UAL at the same time I started my Corporate job.

You might want to do a little further in depth research before you get too excited about things.

 

[fLYbUDDY]

Yeah but it would suck to have to fly a Falcon all day.

 

[Salty Dog]

Falcon Capt,

Not to front you out in front of the crowd here but...

How many corp guys get the multi-million dollar lump sum pension check at the ripe old age of 60?

Now before you say those days are gone forever, has Delta given up one dime yet? Furloughs yes, but concessions? Big U and Air Naazi both actually made money this quarter. Well, big U would have if they didn't have to pay their bankruptcy lawyer ba$tards $100 million dollars a month!

The times they are a changin'...for the better. I believe the doomsayers will be proven wrong again.

Lifestyle - a matter of preference.
Equipment fun factor - corp takes it.
But the big brass ring - what will you have to show for a life's work at age sixty? If you don't mind my asking.

Max respect,

NaCl Mutt

 

[fatburger]

with all due respect,

Falcon Capt. can only speak from one point of view. Justifying his position currently is the only credible response he/she can give, having never flown for a 121 major carrier.

Flying 135 to get to a major is most definitely an acceptable avenue to take. As a previous poster said, you will take a paycut. But you won't take that paycut for long. Even in this new environment of aviation, Being a pilot for a major airline still can't be beat. It's a lifestyle.

There isn't another job out there, outside of 121, where you can chose when, where, how much you want to work. Part 135 and Part 91 cannot say that. From Benies to Jumpseating you can't beat 121.

-fatburger-

 

[WrightAvia]

Ratings: ASEL

Current Position: seated

Total Time: 600+

PUHLEASE! Get some qualifications in aviation as PIC of something that pays the bills with something left over as disposable income, before your start handing out career advice in aviation.

Now before you say those days are gone forever, has Delta given up one dime yet? Furloughs yes, but concessions?

You better read the news closer. Not only are they going to ask for concessions...DELTA JUST SHRANK IT'S FUTURE BY SELLING 21 NEW AIRPLANES AND DEFERING 8 MORE AIRCRAFT DELIVERIES TILL 2008! Acording to this article, Delta is actually competing with Boeing in the new airplane sales business.

http://seattle.bizjournals.com/seattle/stories/2003/10/13/daily17.html

Boeing sees sales competition from Delta Air Lines
Delta Air Lines Inc. said it has reached an agreement with a third party to sell 11 Boeing 737-800 aircraft scheduled for delivery to Delta in 2005, and an option on 10 additional planes scheduled for delivery in 2006 and 2007.

Though the third party was not named, and the financial terms were not disclosed, the deal represents 21 potential sales lost by Seattle-based Boeing Commercial Airplanes Group.

The number of new plane orders Boeing has received this year is at an all-time low, and sales won't get easier as long as the manufacturer has to compete with the airlines to whom it sells.

Delta also said it will defer until 2008 delivery of eight more 737-800s that were due to be delivered in 2005.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/15/b...00&en=e911cd6f7f15728d&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

Delta Cuts Its Quarterly Net Loss in Half (or as salty sayz "The times they are a changin'...for the better!")

Published: October 15, 2003


y Reuters

Delta Air Lines Inc. said yesterday that it cut its quarterly net loss in half as revenue firmed on a slight improvement in summer travel demand and lower costs.

The airline also said it would sell some aircraft and delay delivery of others to cut expenses further, but analysts said the picture at Delta was not likely to improve drastically unless it extracted wage cuts from its pilots.

Delta posted a third-quarter net loss of $164 million, or $1.36 a share, compared with a net loss of $326 million, or $2.67 a share, a year earlier.

Delta had a quarterly loss before unusual items of $172 million, or $1.43 a share. Its revenue grew slightly to $3.44 billion from $3.42 billion.

Delta expects to report another loss for the fourth quarter. Michele Burns, Delta's chief financial officer, forecast a loss of $225 million to $275 million, including a $26 million charge for selling aircraft.

To cut annual capital spending by $500 million through 2005, Delta agreed to sell 11 Boeing 737-800 airplanes to be delivered that year, along with its option to buy 10 more aircraft scheduled for later delivery. Delta will also defer delivery of eight 737-800 aircraft until 2008.

The airline changed its flight attendants' work rules last week, to save $40 million a year, and it will meet again with unionized pilots Friday, though not to negotiate.

 

[banned username 2]

Falcon Capt,

what will you have to show for a life's work at age sixty? If you don't mind my asking.

I'll have a Pension that will bring me about 95% (annually) of the average of my last 5 years take home pay, till I die (my company isn't raiding our pension funds like some of the majors are. UAL's Pension fund is $8 BILLION underfunded). I will have another lump sum which is projected at this time to be between $3-$5 million (depending on how the markets do). Plus I will have health benefits for life.

I'm not saying that Corporate is better than a job at the majors, I am saying that the job at the majors isn't the only way do have a very comfortable retirement.

The original poster said he wwas tired of all the BS associated with the airlines, I was letting him know that there is another route. A route that can be very lucrative, but has many misperceptions. But maybe the misperceptions are a blessing, keeps people out of the competition for the jobs.

 

[Ty Webb]

Originally posted by Falcon Capt:

If you haven't noticed, all the airlines are changing their work rules dramatically to increase productivity and drive down costs. The days of hardly working and collecting a big paycheck are over.

Not true. The company I work for is one of those "hard-working LCC carriers" and I within six months of flying the line, I averaged 16 days off in a 30 day month and 17 days off in a 31 day month as an FO. Granted, there will be a few years of 12-14 day off months as a new Captain, but that's hardly terrrible.

I have a friend who is a new FO at SWA, and he is averaging 17 days off on reserve.

The beauty of an airline schedule, to me, is that:

1) You know your whole month schedule weeks in advance- not only what days on/off will be, but start/stop times, cities you will fly to, and where you will overnight. Nothing like getting an overnight in a city where you have friends or family, and with enough advance time to plan something.

2) The ability to add, drop or trade trips. You can go on-line and look for trips to trade for that better suit your plans or your commuting schedule. I do this throughout the month- trade a weekend trip for a weekday one, or get a better overnight or higher-paying line. Also, if worse comes to worse, and you really want that time off, you can just "drop" a trip if you do it 48 hrs in advance.

3) No surprise phone calls . . . In 2 years, I have yet to be forced to take any trip that wasn;t on my schedule.

4) Live where you want.



Are you sure??? I know a lot of very well off Corporate Pilots... Geez, I'm not doing too bad myself... and today I am actually doing better (financially) than if I would have started UAL at the same time I started my Corporate job.

Falcon Pilot, if your posts are acurate, you have one of the best corporate jobs . . . however, those few Fortune 100 jobs are pretty hard to come by, usually require you to live in an expensive metro area , and the ones that go international often require you to be gone for long periods of time. Maybe not yours, but your job is not a typical corporate job.

I enjoyed corporate flying- and I chose that routeinstead of a regional, but, in the end, the airline schedule, work rules and benefits made going to an airline the right decision for me.

 

[enigma]

Panampilot,

Considering the current state of the profession, you might well make a good decision by going somewhere other than an airline.

I choose to leave a part91 corporate Lear55 job to have the opportunity to try for SWA. I didn't get on with SWA (now trying again) and ended up at Spirit by default. I think that gives me the perspective to speak to both sides and this is what I've got to say about it.......

The best career choice will depend upon your comfort level as it deals with moving around.

If I could acquire a good corporate job in my hometown, I'd quite the airline business in a heartbeat. In the meantime, being an airline pilot has allowed me to leave my family in one place while I progress through a career. Unless you happen to live in an area that's a corporate aviation hotspot, like NY, south FL, southern California,etc, you will most likely have to relocate everytime you search for a new job. And you will occasionally search for a new job, corporate flight departments are always subject to the costcutting whims of a new VP.

Simply put, if you compare Falcons situation with mine, I have only one advantage and that is the ability to live in Texas and work in Fort Lauderdale. Most of the other perks are in his camp.

regards,
enigma

PS, one more thing. Good corporate jobs go to those who excell in self marketing. (please no flames, that is not a negative comment)

 

[wingnutt]

yes, there are jobs out there. ive known more people get hired in the last 6 months than i can remember. and you know what? not a dam one of them got their job, any leads, or even a smidge of info from these wonderful pilot job sites the likes of Climbto350 or FindApilot. all of them got hired by knocking on doors, word-of-mouth, or knowing someone

 

[avoidingmyboss]

Take this test....do you pass?
You might be a freight dog if...


Your airplane was getting old when you were born.
You have not done a daylight landing in the past six months.
ATC advises you of smoother air at a different altitude, and you don't care.
When you taxi up to an FBO they roll out the red carpet, but quickly take it back when they recognise you.
You call the hotel van to pick you up and they don't understand where you are on the airport.
Center asks you to "keep the chickens down" so they can hear you talk.
Your airplane has more than 75,000 cycles.
Your company call sign is "Oil Can".
The lady at the FBO locks up the popcorn machine because you plan on "making a meal of it".
Your airplane has more than eight faded logos on it.
You wear the same shirt for a week, and no one complains.
Center mispronounces your call sign more than three times in one flight.
Your D O mysteriously changes your max. takeoff weight during the holiday season.
Every FBO makes you park out of sight of their building.
You have ever walked barefoot through the FBO because you just woke up.
You mark every ramp with engine oil.
Everything you own is in you flight bag and suitcase.
__________________
THE REAL DEAL

I know that this has made its way to the board at some point in time but it is still funny. This is the way I lived for 2 years panampilot. At the time I hated but, but looking back it was fun. No cared what I did as long as the freight got there on time.

 

[Checks]

Get about 1000hrs in one of those Barons, all at night, and then come back on here and tell us how great it is.

You can make 30K-40K your first year as a FLOATER at Airnet but that gets old after awhile also. Leave on Sunday-return sometime Friday tired as hell. Saturday will be your only true day off