The thought of buying a plane

[Archer]

Today I was browsing thourgh aircraft.com looking at prices of some airplanes that I think are pretty good and that I would buy someday as my first airplane.

I looked at a range of ariplanes, to see how prices where it turned out that it went like this:

Cessna 152s: 20 to 30 Thousand (around 1980 year)

Cessna 172: 50 to 70 Thousand (around late 1970s)

Piper Warrior II: 40 to 60 Thousand (around late 1970s)

Piper Archer: 60 to 80 Thousand (around late 1970s, early 80s)

Piper Arrow: 70 to 90 thousand (late 70s)

Piper Seminole: 70 to 100,000! (for a twin) (late 70s)

Piper Seneca II:100 to 150 (late 70s)
____________________________________

So there is this one Seneca II, for 105,000 about 4300 TT...that seems like an awesome price for a plane that costs over 600 grand new...

They got a Seminole with 3000 TT for 70 grand from 1979!


So I was wondering for those of you who have bought/own or are thinking of buying a plane...

what seems the best choice for the first plane...

I know a lot of people go for the cheap 152s...until they make more money and can afford a better plane...

but a Warrior or 172 seems only 20 or 30 grand more (YEAH ONLY you say...but you can carry 2 extra passengers and some 55 or so extra HP)

Some cheaper archers you can get for the price of a newer, less uesed Warrior...for around 60 grand...if you pay 20 or so extra, u can go for 200 HP retractable Arrow...

yet, the 70 grand twin Seminole is what I would be most interested in...it costs as much as a a Dodge Viper...or two normal cars...and then you can get all the multi time you want...

Senecas are a little more expensive...(quite a bit actually) starting at 100 grand to 150...and for that price, you can get a brand new 172....


What do you guys prefer...an older Arrow or Seminole or a brand new, 2002 Skyhawk SP?

The Arrow and Seminole will get you complex/multi time...

but I guess it cost much more to operate...filling the 108 gallon tank at say 3 bucks/gallon thats 324 bucks! And that's just fuel!

But that will get you 6.8 hours of multi flight time...so that's about 50 bucks an hour! Compare to renting it for over twice or three times that price...

Now, this calculation seems very dreamy...as in, you buy a 70 grand Seminole, and I just figured it would cost 50 bucks/hour fuel wise...

now...I know there are a ton of other costs...but how much would all those add to the cost/hour? and what are some of these costs?

the 100 hour, the annual, oil change and hangar space?

Is that all?

thanx

Archer

 

[tach32]

Seminole 411

Operating Costs for a Piper Seminole
PQ Avg.
Fuel (GPH): 16.00
Fuel Costs/Gallon: 2.16
Fuel Costs/Hour: 34.83
Oil Costs per Hour: 2.00
Maintenance Cost/Hour: 32.03
Hourly Engine Reserve: 18.02
Prop T/R Reserve: 3.02
Total Variable Costs/Hour: 89.91
Average Speed (MPH): 155.45
Cost/SM: 0.58
Annual Insurance: 5,479.21
Annual Hangar/Tiedown: 3,573.27
Training: 1,801.98
Total Fixed Costs: 10,854.46
Hours/Year: 200.00
Fixed Cost/Hour: 54.27
Total Variable & Fixed Costs/Year: 28,836.24
Total Costs/Hour: 144.18
Total Cost/SM: 0.93

These numbers are based on 200/hrs per year. Depending on your insurance company, it may/may not be cheaper (I pay $2500/yr). I lease the seminole back to a flight school @ $150/hr and as long as it flies 10 hours a month it subsidizes my personal operating cost. It typically only cost about $123/hr to operate. I invested the money and bought one and flew it for about 1000 hours and I came out not oweing a dime. In fact it is for sale now and is in perfect condition, full IFR and annual, etc.

 

[MarineGrunt]

tach32- Which webpage did you get that information from? I recognise it, and used to have the link, but lost it.....

Great info on that page, BTW.


EDITED TO ADD:

tach32- Did you have to pay higher insurance rates for the lease back because of it being a training aircraft?

What about the 100 hour? Did you have to pay for that, or the flight school?

 

[cvsfly]

The web site is http://www.planequest.com/operationcosts/default.asp

As you can see, renting is not necessarily cheaper than owning. Also you may notice right away the suggested fuel cost are way low on this site. Your insurance cost may differ greatly as well. Even if you buy right (i.e. prepurchase inspection, dependable maintenance history, missing ADs not complied with, location, etc.), still expect unexpected maintenance costs. The real benefit of aircraft ownership is having a known machine available to your schedule. Have a reason for using the plane other than just building time. Then you may find the investment (if you take care of it you may get a portion of it back) is worth it. Be prepared to sell it when the market is good and there is an opportunity. Build on equity. Nothing worst than buying a machine you can barely afford, can't afford to operate, and then can't sell at a retail price.

 

[tach32]

Purchasing the Seminole was a great investment for me to make. As I said before, I used it to build valuable xc time as well as multi. I will agree that owning it was an added convenience for me because I had the security that it would always be available when I wanted it for an extended period (ie, not having to pay the minimum 4 hrs per day, etc.). I paid for my own maintenance ($45/hr), 100 HR, and annual, but like I said as long as you set aside some of the monthly rental profit, it pays for itself. I averaged about 20-30 hrs of rental income and flew about 40 hrs myself. The insurance is usually provided via the flight school and you pay the premium (average about $6500/yr and it was insured for $85k). Fuel & oil is usually discounted because the school has a deal set with the FBO. It ends up being a great deal if you can afford the expense of purchasing an aircraft. If I had to do it again I most certainly would, in fact I would probably consider forming a flight club among 2 or 3 other people looking to build xc-multi time and still have a lease back agreement with a flight school. I primarily invested the $$$ because I wanted the added security that the plane was in excellent condition (especially during those hard IMC times). I currently have mine for sale, I hate to get rid of it but I don’t have the time to fly it anymore, it’s a shame because that plane has been all over the US on my $100 HAMBURGER missions! Let me know if you would like any info on N2119Y, I’ll sell er to you.

 

[HappyFlying]

Archer,

I have a 1970 Cessna 150 that I've own nearly three years. I have averaged about 200 hrs/yr in it. It is IFR certified so I not only got my instrument rating in it, I have logged over 100 hour instrument hours in it while building time. I fly it IMC quite a bit if there is an overcast to go shoot approaches in without getting into anything nasty. I also did most of my commercial training in it. I had a mere 10.1 hours in an Arrow when I took my checkride in it.
My insurance runs less than $500 yearly
Tiedown runs me around $600/yr
My maintenance usually runs around $2500 including the annual
Fuel burn is less than 6 GPH
Engine overhaul will run at least $14,000
My new paint will cost $6000 when I get around to it

I seriously considered buying a Skyhawk for the extra seats/payload but almost all my 150 time is solo. When I go on outings with the flying club, We all fly our own planes. We approach airports like a big gaggle of geese. We have up to 12 aircraft in a loose formation sometimes. I normally bring up the rear unless the J-3 Cub goes along. I couldn't take a rented aircraft all day and land it on private grass strips. I love having my own airplane but it's like having a horse you can't shoot. They always need something but I expect that. My little bugchaser and I have flown in 22 states so far. I saw the first sunrise of the Millennium from my 150 and have seen meteor showers, fireworks, and been all sorts of cool places in it. It isn't for everyone but I'll work extra hours to do it.
Good Luck,

HappyFlying

 

[Archer]

Operating Costs for a Piper Seminole
PQ Avg.
Fuel (GPH): 16.00
Fuel Costs/Gallon: 2.16
Fuel Costs/Hour: 34.83
Oil Costs per Hour: 2.00
Maintenance Cost/Hour: 32.03
Hourly Engine Reserve: 18.02
Prop T/R Reserve: 3.02
Total Variable Costs/Hour: 89.91
Average Speed (MPH): 155.45
Cost/SM: 0.58
Annual Insurance: 5,479.21
Annual Hangar/Tiedown: 3,573.27
Training: 1,801.98
Total Fixed Costs: 10,854.46
Hours/Year: 200.00
Fixed Cost/Hour: 54.27
Total Variable & Fixed Costs/Year: 28,836.24
Total Costs/Hour: 144.18
Total Cost/SM: 0.93

These numbers are based on 200/hrs per year. Depending on your insurance company, it may/may not be cheaper (I pay $2500/yr). I lease the seminole back to a flight school @ $150/hr and as long as it flies 10 hours a month it subsidizes my personal operating cost. It typically only cost about $123/hr to operate. I invested the money and bought one and flew it for about 1000 hours and I came out not oweing a dime. In fact it is for sale now and is in perfect condition, full IFR and annual, etc.

I am not sure what a lot of these costs are:

Maintenance Cost/Hour: 32.03
Hourly Engine Reserve: 18.02
Prop T/R Reserve: 3.02
Training: 1,801.98

Hours/Year: 200.00 , what is this for, why does it matter how much you fly? Is this so that you want to figure out whether to rent or own a plane?

tach32, did you buy a used or new Seminole?

And what exactly is an engine overhaul (is it tearing it apart and replacing some parts?) If it's 14,000 for a 150? what is it for the TWO engines of a Seminole?

I invested the money and bought one and flew it for about 1000 hours and I came out not oweing a dime.

What do you mean, you got the money back from renting?


And what made you buy a Seminole?

I was looking at aircraft.com, and a saw a Seminole for 70 grand and a Seneca II for 100 grand...

The seneca has 2 extra seats, some 30+ extra knots of speed right? But probably costs a lot more...

If someone could explain those costs I mentioned before I would appreciate it...

also, if someone could tell me what the costs are in a simple way, e.g.

You go flying a x/c for 3 hours. You only pay for fuel at $/hour (given you don't pay landing fees etc)

Then, you don't worry about paying anything for a while. You fly happy, paying for eg 35$/hour for the Seminole. And that is all you pay, for example you would pay 105 bucks for that 3 hour x/c. That is all. Let say you took up 3 passengers, you would pay a nice and low $26.25 for owning a Seminole multi-engine airplane.

Then, after X hours you replace oild at $/quart, after Y hours you have to pay a mechanic for 100 hour check, once every six months you pay the hangar/tiedown cost, once a year you pay insurance...etc.

thanx

Archer

 

[tach32]

Explanation

Archer,
I see that you are a student pilot. What are your intentions as far as a flying career?
If you are building time to eventually fly for a living then owning a plane would be the way to go if you want to build multi-engine cross country time. Flying a C-152 is great, don't get me wrong! Actually flying is great!
The typical progression of a pilot is this: student-solo-private-instrument-multi-commercial-certified flight instructor/instrument-multi-engine flight instructor/instrument-airline transport. Maybe not in that order for everyone, but that is the typical 141 flight school and it usually takes 3 years to get to CFII or MEII.
My point was to give you options, you did ask for information as to operational cost. Budgeting is very crucial to an operation of an aircraft. Your cost per hour includes the break down of it all averaged out...
Fuel
Oil & oil change
Engine overhaul
basic wear and tear
Tires
Insurance
Tie down
Avionics certification
Annuals/ 100 hrs
So now say you fly it on average of 200 hours a year- not renting it, just you flying it by yourself, at $2.59/gallon (108 useable)=$725. The Seminole burns (2 engines) 18/gollons per hour so for 6 hrs you pay in fuel $725. Now for every 3 hours of flight time expect to burn 1 quart of oil. Tires are usually replaced every 3-4 months (again depending on how much you fly it) at about $100. For every hour you fly put aside about $20 towards engine wear (that is so that you don't pay $14k-$18k all at one-a piggy bank if you will). Insurance anywhere from $2000-$6500/year depending on your total time as a pilot (because you are a liability). Monthly hanger/tie down about $90. Annuals and 100 HRS. about $2500 (if no major repairs are needed). Again if you only fly about 200 hours a year yourself then it is a costly hobby. BUT if you are investing in your career then the way to go is to build that ever so precious multi-time.
A typical flight school will rent out a multi-engine trainer anywhere from $120/hr to $230/hr, so by-o-means if you want to spend that money and not have others help subsidize your flight expenses then rent away. I realize that this is a difficult decision but that my word that when it comes time to finding a job (especially in this market) you want the multi time. In other words, again only advice, either get your MEII to instruct (and have someone else pay for your time) or get a few fellow pilots and invest in your future. In the end you'll make out well because you'll sell the plane if you buy it to begin with and not have lost a dime (well maybe a few) and again will have had others contribute to your career.
Hope this helps.

 

[Archer]

tach32, I don't know what my plans are yet.

Right now I'm a Junior in college in a non-aviation related degree. At least not flying related...I'm learning how to design planes not fly them.

On the side, I'm about to get my PPL. About a dozen hours from it I'm guessing.

I'm planning on finishing up my degree so I can say I've got a BA in Aero, so I will not have wasted 3 years of my life.

After that though, I don't know. I can do one of two things.

a)Go onto getting an MA in Aero, get a full time job as an Aero, and fly for either pleasure or as part time CFI or whatever other part time jobs exist out there for Commercial Pilots.

b)Instead of an MA in Aero, get an A.S in Flight Technology (flight major) and come out in 2 years or so with a Commercial/Instrument Multiengine certificate/rating and become a CFI or get some Commercial part 91 job (that's the lowest requirement job right? Requires least amount of hours?) until I build up time, and then go into Corporate flying after getting typed in Citations, Lears, Falcons, Gulstreams or whatever. This would be the choice where I would proably try to buy myself a Seminole and get all thsoe multi x/c time.

Getting a job as an Aero is easier than getting one as a pilot in the US for me. I don't have US citizenship, and most Aero companies require it. So I would have to go back to Europe. But I have more of a chance as a pilot I think...at least for Corporate flying right? (anyone?)

So in the next year and a half, until I graduate, I'll try to get as much advice as possible, meanwhile get my Private and Instrument ratings...at LEAST. Maybe even Multi...or Commercial...

I am really confused right now...Aero is better paying job, and I like it, yet I really love flying and I always wanted to be a pilot...even though it pays less and is less flexible on your schedule...especially if you have to hop out of bed at 5 am on command to go ferry some business executive somewhere with a couple hours notice...

So, if I go the professional way, I'll probably want to buy myself a Seminole if I can with the help of a job and my parents. That is my dream...I really think a Seminole would be great as it costs less to buy and operate than a Seneca or any other light Twin I think...

If not, I would proably be off renting rather than owning.

Let say I fly 10 hours a month at 25$/hour...for a year, that's 3000 bucks, compared with the fixed cost of owning a Seminole being about 6 or 7 grand.

Of course, the 25$ is for say an Arrow or $20 for an Archer since I'll be flying with 3 passengers most often.

So I shouldn't be comparing the renting of a single with owning a twin...

but basically, if I don't aim to fly professionally, I think the only plane I could own would be a C150/152

Also, It depends on where I'm going to live, and for how long...if I move around all the time, buying a plane would be more difficult...but I guess, If I stay in the same country, it'll be ok.

So I'm just confused, and will have to wait until the time comes...

right now, I just need to get those x/c's right so I can take my checkride and fly my friends around as a PPL...get those x/c requirements/exprience and get my Instrument so I don't have to worry about crappy weather all the time...

Archer

 

[TDTURBO]

Archer,

Forget the twin, you'll never get insured.

Buy a 182 or a 182rg, it will smoke an Arrow in useful load, range and speed. They are costly, I paid over 130 for mine but it's a loaded 1982 with AP, stormscope, HSI, IFR GPS, ect....

I can't imagine owning anything else, I will easily sell it for more than I paid for it but plan on setting aside an additional 30% of the purchase price for fixed and unfixed costs.

Good Luck!

 

[Archer]

The only reason I was considering Multi after my Private and Instrument was this:

A check-out by one of FBO's flight instructors.
A 90-day currency in the Seneca.
If you received all your multi-training at FBO, then all you need is a minimum 10 hours multi engine time.

That, at 155 bucks/hour, divided into me and 5 passengers (my friends) i.e. about 25 bucks for me/hour!

So, if I get my training at my current FBO, I will be able to fly the Seneca (because of the minimum hour requirements (10 hours)) and not pay all that much (25 bucks, as much as I would pay me and 4 passengers in a new 172, or an Arrow if I get my complex) or not much more than an Archer (about 17 bucks/hour)

That's assuming I will be able to share the cost with 5 passengers every time though...

that doesn't seem like such a bad deal, especially since training is about a dozen hours or so...


I know I should mess around and underestimate the difficulty in flying a multi-engine airplane...but it does seem like a good deal no?

I would be able to build a lot of multi time for little price by taking x/c's with 5 friends to all over the neighbouring states...

I see, you got a Commercial/Instrument SEL Turbo...if my CFI and other people convince me against the multi after my Private...I'll end up going your way...and getting my multi only after CP/ASEL-IA...

Archer

 

[katanabob]

I'm planning on finishing up my degree so I can say I've got a BA in Aero, ...
...
a)Go onto getting an MA in Aero, ...

Where are you going to school that an aero engineering degree is a BA program? Unless you're going by an alternate set of requirements to make it such, shouldn't you end up with a BS at the end? (And with more schooling, an MS in Aero)

 

[KlingonLRDRVR]

Archer,

check this website out for a great book Used Aircraft Gide Vol. 1 & 2 that explains alot of your questions and gives excellent facts on different models of different plane. For example if you are buying a C310 way you would want to buy from the "K" models on up but maybe not before. An excellant resource and cost is 50 to 60 bones. The education alone is worth it. If you get an airplane the knowledge from this book will save you thousands.

Website: http://www.aeroprice.com/uag9th.htm

good luck

KlingonLRDRVR

 

[English]

Right after finished my private, I bought a Cessna Hawk XP (R172K) with two other guys for $55,000. It's a good airplane because it was basically the 172 airframe with the Continental IO-360 (210 HP) with a constant-speed prop. It also had the long range fuel tanks. It was a good compromise between the 172 and 182 because it had the low operating costs of the 172 (no retractable gear) but it had the extra power to climb out of high-elevation airports and could carry four people without a problem (higher useful load than the 172).

I was flying the airplane quite a lot during the first two years of owning it. I had the hourly cost down to $38 an hour at one point, including maintenance, engine reserves, tie-down, fuel, etc. I did my instrument rating and CFII in it, as well as ratings and certificates for many of my friends.

The best part of owning your own aircraft is that the airplane is always in the same shape as when you left it. I remember renting aircraft that other renters took absolutely no pride in - they'd leave candy wrappers and soda cans on the floor, wouldn't tidy up the seat belts, stuff like that. Made me wonder how they treated the airplane in flight.

During the three years we owned it, we never once had a scheduling conflict.

When I sold the airplane we made a nice little profit. I wish I hadn't sold it, it was a great airplane.

 

[Archer]

katanabob, I meant BS and MS...

thanx for the site, I'll have a look

 

[bigD]

Archer - the problem is finding 5 friends that want to help with the cost of the plane each and every time. If you're taking them to a destination for a specific purpose, like a vacation or concert, or whatever - then they'll probably be more likely to pay. But it's tough to convince people to help pay when you're just out to get a $100 hamburger. Also remember that the Seneca is barely a 4 person plane with full fuel - let alone 6. Your trips are going to be short with 6 aboard.

I personally like to fly twins at least twice a month to stay proficient, and will practice my single engine stuff at least once over that month too. Proficiency is the way to remain not dead when flying twins. Personally, I'd consider finding another multi-pilot to split time with as well. That way you can practice manuevers and single engine stuff while only paying half the rental cost.

Just some ideas. Good luck!

 

[TurboS7]

My first airplane was a PA-32-260 that I bought for $17,500, the second was a U-206F for $25,000. My third was an Aztec with full deice radar for $28,000. My fourth was a PA-32-300 for $28,000. Then came the PA-31's for 120,000 etc. etc. owning an airplane is great but it comes with a whole diffrent aspect of aviation. If your motivation is just to build flight time there are easier and cheaper ways to do it. 20 years ago it used to make sense, nowdays I don't even think it is possible.

 

[Chas]

Beech musketeer super 3 200 hp

Stable - wide body affordable - if you plan on flying 200 hours or more a year they say owning a plane is the wayto go. but...... A plane also has other benefits It can be a neat thing to have to spruce up and tinker with ( within reason) Its also a great way to network with other pilots and oh yse the chicks dig it too. . Good luck Chas