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The Rule of Law

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kevdog

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 26, 2002
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888
In 1943 Winston Churchill said:

"The power of the executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree odious, and the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist."

After 9/11, with relation to terror, the Bush administration claimed and exercised the right to declare people - including US citizens - to be "enemy combatants" or "suspected terrorists" and to imprison them without charge or access to lawyers or family until the White House determines that its "war on terror" has been successfully concluded.

Ironically, President Bush is said to have on his desk a bust of Winston Churchill, a gift from his friend Tony Blair. Perhaps someone in the Justice Department might want to contemplate the thoughts of the man whose image faces their leader every day.

Is our Government under the Bush administration totalitarian?
 
No, but Chruchill was a real bastard, responsible for the massacre of his own people prior to his heyday in the War. Certainly no jewel in the crown of humanity.
 
Unless the secret police show up tonight and beat you within an inch of your miserable life, then no, we do not live under a totalitarian government.
 
Churchill was making reference to the typical relationship between citizen and their government. The "enemy combatants" at GitMo are just that. They are not US citzens, and are not subject to our constitutional protections. They, by their actions, have placed themselves at risk to be placed in the "enemy combatant" category.

Everything that GW is doing in reference to these prisoners is both humane and legal. Try getting that from the other two groups that Churchill mentioned.
 
Timebuilder said:
Everything that GW is doing in reference to these prisoners is both humane and legal. Try getting that from the other two groups that Churchill mentioned.

The Red Cross and other humanitarian groups were not allowed access to the prisoners of war in occupied Cuba, a direct violation of the Geneva Conventions, and to captured civilians. Not exactly "Legal."

"Enemy Combatants" can also be citizens of the U.S. and treated without rights.
 
If someone wants to become an enemy combatant of the United States, then that is his right. He can expect to be treated as an enemy combatant if he decides to make that choice.

The Geneva Convention applies to Prisoners of War. Since these people acted without the imprimateur of a country behind them, and they are not a group themselves that are signators of the Convention, they are not Prisoners of War. Thus, the "ememy combatant" status, which is different from a Prisoner of War status.

In this case, the Red Cross had no standing, as the detainees were not held under the terms of the Convention.
 
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The problem is that Jose Padilla was a citizen of the US, had not been caught doing anything (just supposedly "planning"), and was moved to a Navy brig in SC. Courts have since decided against the Bush administration and said that he has a right to an attorney, even if he is considered an "enemy combatent." So, you are slightly wrong in your analysis...

Also, what is the extent to which we will allow this behavior of the executive? Anyone can be classified as such for various types of behavior. GWB and his thugs classify terrorism in a very broad sense. Ashcroft goes as far as to say that criticizing the government is tantamount to siding with the terrorists, thus making you one yourself. So, where do we draw the line?

Allowing this behavior of your government is dangerous. Prisoners of war are one thing and can be understood. Problem is that war typically has to be declared. No such war has been so. As well, POWs are to be returned when the war is over. When is it over? Hell, the War on Drugs has been going on for over 20 years. Are we going to just hold people for 20 years for speaking out? Jeez, welcome to China...

Be careful what you allow. Churchill may have been a bastard, but that comment was no less on the money. Just because someone who speaks is an idiot/murderer/felon does not mean he can't be right once in awhile. I know that's tough for conservatives to handle...
 
I am sorry, but I do not see the evidence to back up your statements merikeyegro...

The courts have ruled, and upheld the law. Just as they have numerous times in the past.

You said that Ashcroft said "that criticizing the government is tantamount to siding with the terrorists, thus making you one yourself"

Well a lexis/nexis search can turn up no such quote, not even one with criticizing, government and terrorist in the same entry, so please let me know your source on this so I won't have to call you a liar.

You say welcome to China? Son, you do not know what you are talking about. If we were in China, they would be knocking on your door about now.

You also claim that there are people being held in the US for speaking out. Please let me know who they are and where they are and I will work with you to see that they are freed. The unlawful enemy combatants held at Gitmo were doing much more than speaking out my friend, and are not being held on US soil.

I do not mind someone speaking in platitudes, but outright lying is another thing, even if you are an idiot/murderer/felon.
 
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Timebuilder,

I think the correct term for many (all?) at Gitmo is "unlawful combatant," and such are not accorded POW rights under the Geneva conventions. To whine (as kevdog did) that illegal combatants aren't getting their POW rights is to display a complete ignorance of whence one speaks. To be a POW, one must first be a lawful combatant, for which there are several criteria. Terrorists, for instance, violate several of the laws of armed conflict, thus depriving themselves of "lawful combatant" status.

It is equally ignorant, or mendacious, to claim that GWB himself is personally holding enemy combatants in the US without access to lawyers. There are attorneys & courts who are supporting all that is going on in that regard. While appeals are still being made (you can appeal anything, it doesn't make you right), to suggest that all of this is happening outside the law & outside all known precedent is simply wrong. The Constitution grants the executive branch far, far broader powers in wartime dealing with enemy combatants than when dealing with citizens in ordinary criminal proceedings, and the courts have upheld such broader powers many times (dating back to WW II & prior).

It's a cute soundbite to claim that the present administration is shredding the Constitution & the rule of law, but it isn't remotely true.

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Also, anyone who would write "GWB and his thugs" is clearly so far gone from reality that I find it hard to take him seriously. Thugs are those who broke into Iraqi homes & raped women. Thugs are those who blow themselves up to kill civillians. Thugs are those who beat women for not wearing a veil. Thugs fly airplanes into buildings. To refer to our government in such terms demonstrates a total disconnect between rhetoric & reality.
 
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http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004499

Earth to Second Circuit
We're at war.

BY BRADFORD A. BERENSON
Thursday, January 1, 2004 12:01 a.m. EST

"How can the President of the United States detain a U.S. citizen on American soil and hold him without charge and without a lawyer, perhaps for years?" This is the question that apparently boggled the judicial mind in the Second Circuit's recent decision directing that Jose Padilla be turned loose by the U.S. military or surrendered to civilian prosecutors in the criminal justice system. Given the near certainty of further review by the full Second Circuit or the Supreme Court, the question remains important.

It also has an easy answer. The key fact is not that Jose Padilla is a U.S. citizen. It is that Padilla, a k a Abdullah al-Muhajir, was an al Qaeda agent who worked directly with terrorist mastermind Abu Zubaydah to plan a dirty-bomb attack on a major American city. He was captured in Chicago-O'Hare airport on his way back from Pakistan to scout potential targets. He was, in short, an active enemy fighter making war on the U.S. and its citizens, just as the 19 hijackers who attacked New York, Washington, and Pennsylvania were.

A person making war on the U.S. who seeks to slaughter thousands of our citizens in the streets of our cities must face our military, not our judges. Such a person, U.S. citizen or not, is not a common criminal. He is an avowed enemy of our system of laws and government and a mortal threat to our way of life. The powers implicated are not the president's law-enforcement powers but his war powers. Until the Second Circuit's ruling last month, it had never been thought that the president, in the exercise of his war powers, could not use force against such a person on American soil. Indeed, it would have come as a great surprise to both Abraham Lincoln and Franklin Roosevelt to learn that the president lacks the power to use the military to protect the nation from citizen enemy combatants as well as foreign ones.

The president's power as commander in chief to do what is necessary to protect the nation in time of war is, as it must be, exceptionally flexible and robust. He can engage and subdue the enemy in any way he sees fit. There is no judicial check on his authority in this vital and sensitive area because there cannot be: As the Framers expressly recognized in the Federalist Papers, the "decision, activity, secrecy, and dispatch" that are the hallmarks of unitary executive power are "essential to the protection of the community against foreign attacks."

Under the laws of war, the legitimate use of force has always included the power to capture and detain enemy combatants for the duration of the conflict, without charges and without lawyers, for the purpose of incapacitating them, gleaning actionable intelligence, and protecting the nation's security. This power is no less essential when applied to terrorists captured on our shores, even if they happen to be U.S. citizens. As the Supreme Court recognized more than 50 years ago in unanimously upholding President Roosevelt's capture on U.S. soil of a U.S. citizen Nazi saboteur, "citizens who associate themselves with the military arm of the enemy . . . and enter this country bent on hostile acts are enemy belligerents" and may be treated as such.





The real-world consequences of the recent ruling to the contrary could not be more dangerous or debilitating, especially in this war, in which our enemies are attempting to carry out attacks within the U.S. and conceal themselves among the civilian population in order to do so. Under the court's ruling, the only option for dealing with an American citizen engaged in terrorist activity on our soil, at least absent further legislation, is the civilian justice system.
In practical terms, this means that citizen terrorists may be entirely beyond the government's reach. Never mind the kinds of serious problems that have thus far impeded the successful criminal prosecution of Zacarias Moussaoui, in many cases, no traditional criminal case could be brought at all against an al Qaeda agent found in the U.S. At the point of apprehension, we may not know what a terrorist is planning, his plans may not yet have ripened into prosecutable crimes, or the evidence we have against him may be derived from intelligence sources that cannot meet the normal standards of admissibility in a criminal courtroom. If military detention is not an option, and, for one or more of these reasons, a suspected terrorist cannot be charged with a crime, he must be let go.

Equally alarming, even when a criminal case might be made, the government will be unable to successfully interrogate and gather intelligence from al Qaeda recruits among our citizens. The purpose of military detentions is incapacitation and prevention, not prosecution; to disrupt planned attacks and dismantle terrorist networks, it is vital that the military be able to interrogate enemy fighters on our soil and learn everything they know as quickly as possible. That cannot happen if, as the Second Circuit has ruled, these fighters must be arrested by civilian law enforcement, given Miranda warnings, provided with a lawyer, and charged with a crime or held as a material witness.

Granting immunity from military detention to American agents of al Qaeda captured in the U.S. is thus a potentially crippling disservice to the war effort. If left undisturbed, the Second Circuit ruling would leave exceptionally dangerous individuals in our communities and reduce our ability to prevent further attacks on U.S. soil. It also creates shockingly perverse incentives for al Qaeda to do precisely what we are most desperate to prevent: recruit U.S. citizens to carry out acts of terrorism here.

Despite its protestations to the contrary, the Second Circuit must have doubted whether we are really at war. At a minimum, it seriously misunderstood the war's essential character. The court repeatedly described American soil as distinct from a battlefield and said that Mr. Padilla was "outside a zone of combat" and was not "actively engaged in armed conflict against the United States" when he was apprehended in O'Hare airport. By that logic, neither were the 19 hijackers as they walked through Logan and Dulles Airports on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001. If 9/11 did not illustrate that nicely dressed al Qaeda in our airports are enemy fighters on the battlefields of this new war, what did it teach us?

Mr. Berenson, a Washington lawyer, was associate White House counsel to President Bush.
 
It kills me that the morons screaming about enemy combatants being an "unprecedented move" ignore history! FDR classified many as enemy combatants...it's not a new category that "evil Ashcroft" just made up...Washington, Lincoln, and FDR all convened military tribunals. Our 16th prez even suspended habeas corpus...I guess he's a tyrant?

Added:Oh yeah...Padilla's getting his day in court, so whatcha y'all bitchin' about now?
 
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Way to go Snoopy58.

While I realize that these liberal buffoons are not willing to acknowledge reality, it is fun to make them choke on their words.

"Bush and his thugs" Please

You Bush-Haters would be funny if it weren't for how dangerous your thinking is.

The liberal mind - unable to reason, it must be defeated.

Scream, cry, and have a good 'ol tantrum. Let it all out.

Daddy (GWB) is keeping ya safe.



------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, by the way, Padilla?? It's ONE GUY - get that? ONE GUY!!

A real abuse of power...

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
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Here is how these things are spread among the general public, for the purpose of regaining political control for democrats:

A person that our leftist poster regards as "wise" or rational" makes an appearance on an outlet of the media. Maybe it's CNN, maybe it's NPR, or maybe a speech in New Hampshire for Wes Clark, with an added flavor from Michael Moore.

Here is the key: the host never challenges the rhetoric, the references made by the "guest", or the incredible leaps of logic that are part and parcel of the left wing rhetoric. There might be an "I see", or a "that's very distubing", but there will be no challenge to the guest on these outlets.

There is a lot of handwringing, ignoring of facts, a crocodile tear shed for the constitution that they often hate, particularly when it says that a child DOES have a right to freely practice a religious view, without it being a muslim view, in school.

It is a new world, brought to our door by terrorists. We will meet them, and we will defeat them.

On a regular basis.
 

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