The Perfect STORM: Oil Gets Above $49 - Not Good....

[jetblue320]

Dude, get off your LCC high horse! Half the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**en reason this industry and namely our profession is suffering so bad is because assholes like you take jobs at carriers that pay 1/2 the wages of the so called "legacy" airlines.

Lets see how your fuel hedge does if JB were paying you pre-concession UAL rates on that Bus??

Why don't you get off your drugs? If you had a brain, you wouldn't make stupid statements like that. And FWIW, my pay is a LOT more than half of a legacy airline.

This industry is "suffering" because of greedy, spineless pricks like you.

Try not to be so bitter.

 

[Ty Webb]

There are some good points raised here, but so far, no one has pointed out that the price isn't just determined by LCC's, it is also a function of capacity.

As an example, Delta flys six flights a day from from PNS to ATL and charges $500. R/T. AirTran comes in with 3 717 flights a day at $258. Delta matches the fare, and adds three more flights a day, in an attempt to "keep marketshare". AirTran lowers the rate to $218. Delta matches. AirTran makes a little money, Delta loses a lot of money.

Now, what would have happened if Delta hadn't put three additional flights in there (at a loss)? AirTran's flights would be full, they would raise the price, Delta would raise the price, and eventually, Delta and AirTran would BOTH be flying pax at a price that they could each make money at.

In other words, there are two factors at work here. The LCC may set a lower price, but the Legacy's response of adding capacity keeps the price low.

Also, LCC's do go to smaller communities. AirTran goes to Bloomington IL, Moline IL, Gulfport MS, Akron OH, Myrtle Beach, etc. Pick up a copy of SWA's schedule, and look at some of the places they go to. ATA has service to places you probably couldn;t even find on a map without a couple of hints. Not every town will have air service, unless they are willing to pay for it. Otherwise, they can drive an hour or so to the "big city". That's just part of living in the sticks.

FWIW, AirTran is comfortably hedged as well. It's in the quarterly statement, at around $1.05 or $1.10 / gal. Fuel hedging is covered in the 10-Q report of each airline, if anyone wants to look them up.

 

[Patriot328]

Gov't then FORCES UAL/AA to give up slots at ORD, only to then be filled in by FLYI......more RJ's to ORD.

bullsh*t. ORD isn't a slot airport. ACA went from 140-ish flights a day to 12. 92% reduction. If you are saying flyI's 12 flights a day are the crux of ORD's woes, you're nuts.

 

[drag]

Never said FLYI's 12 flights a day are the crux of ORD's woes. What I said was that the gov't forces AA/UA to give up time slots. This was to ease conjestion. These time vacancies are then filled by another carrier. Now that's B/S....and a fact. As my memory serves me, I don't recall ACA ever serving ORD. I do know that ACA was contracted out to be feeder for UAL. I may be wrong, perhaps you can tell me when ACA began serving ORD. What gate did they use? Also, where was their ticket counter? Thanks for the info.

 

[Patriot328]

As my memory serves me, I don't recall ACA ever serving ORD. I do know that ACA was contracted out to be feeder for UAL. I may be wrong, perhaps you can tell me when ACA began serving ORD. What gate did they use? Also, where was their ticket counter? Thanks for the info.

FAA went by operating certificates.. ACA's been there for years.

 

[HA25]

Why don't you get off your drugs? If you had a brain, you wouldn't make stupid statements like that. And FWIW, my pay is a LOT more than half of a legacy airline.

This industry is "suffering" because of greedy, spineless pricks like you.

Try not to be so bitter.

Sorry pal, but I don't buy it.... while DALPA is holding the bar up as long as they can and keeping work rules and scope at bay, NWA and AMR trying to do the same, you guys are eating their corporate lunch with your scab like wages and workrules (read pilot productivity)... and don't give me this profit share bull**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** since most JB pilots didn't get the fancy stock options the first few did... let's see what happens when the economy turns around, are you gonna raise the bar for the rest of us, or just help us race to the bottom...

 

[jetblue320]

Sorry pal, but I don't buy it.... while DALPA is holding the bar up as long as they can and keeping work rules and scope at bay, NWA and AMR trying to do the same, you guys are eating their corporate lunch with your scab like wages and workrules (read pilot productivity)... and don't give me this profit share bull**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** since most JB pilots didn't get the fancy stock options the first few did... let's see what happens when the economy turns around, are you gonna raise the bar for the rest of us, or just help us race to the bottom...

The stock options and profit sharing "bull" you refer to are two separate items and have nothing to do with each other.

I can see that you feel that productivity is a bad thing so I won't waste my time with that way of thinking. The economy affects all the airlines, some more than others. So I guess what you are saying is you need Jetblue (and others) to maintain "your" standard of living, is that right? How are a bunch of "scabs" gonna do that? And do you think for one second that the DALPA boys are in this mess they are in to maintain the profession to include Jetblue?

Get a grip on yourself.

Like I said many times already, you are just too bitter. But, try to have a good day anyway.

 

[skirt]

your scab like wages and workrules (read pilot productivity)... QUOTE]

Hmmm.... let me get this straight... As pilots we fly for a living. That means we get paid to fly, not paid to sit at home or sit in a lounge chair at the airport. Cracks me up that you think working is bad!

Maybe I can rephrase productivity so even you can understand. Productivity while working equals more days not working. I did a comparison before coming here. 15 days off at an "unproductive" legacy airline on narrowbody aircraft meant about 75-80 hours (with mid level seniority). 15 days off at JB usually means 85-90 hours (with mid level seniority). For example, this month I have 15 days off and 92 hours, with 8 months seniority. That extra 10 hours of pay for the same days of work very quickly erases any difference in pay, and then exceeds it. Remember, any flying over 70 hours at JetBlue is time and a half.

I would much rather fly while at "work" than sit around on 3 hour unpaid "productivity breaks" between banks at a hub.

Skirt

 

[HA25]

your scab like wages and workrules (read pilot productivity)... QUOTE]

Hmmm.... let me get this straight... As pilots we fly for a living. That means we get paid to fly, not paid to sit at home or sit in a lounge chair at the airport. Cracks me up that you think working is bad!

Maybe I can rephrase productivity so even you can understand. Productivity while working equals more days not working. I did a comparison before coming here. 15 days off at an "unproductive" legacy airline on narrowbody aircraft meant about 75-80 hours (with mid level seniority). 15 days off at JB usually means 85-90 hours (with mid level seniority). For example, this month I have 15 days off and 92 hours, with 8 months seniority. That extra 10 hours of pay for the same days of work very quickly erases any difference in pay, and then exceeds it. Remember, any flying over 70 hours at JetBlue is time and a half.

I would much rather fly while at "work" than sit around on 3 hour unpaid "productivity breaks" between banks at a hub.

Skirt

If you expect me to believe that the concessions taken at UAL,AA, and others are only causing guys to fly more hours with the same number of days off, you are smoking something you shouldn't be while working as a pilot. The FACT is quality of life at the "legacy" airlines is way down, pay is way down, and the airline industry is coming apart. Our profession is at an all time new low.... work rules and safety (rest) rules are under strong pressure all because you and our other fine LCC are whoring their employees in the name of $85 round trip tix from JFK to SFO...

no pal, you get a grip! ... JB320, so where's your pension plan? A and B fund?? Or is the only way you get some money at your retirement to whore your self out at substandard wages for 20 years? Where do you think JB's profits are going to go if ALL Legacy airlines turn into $85 LCC's? huh?

**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** right I'm bitter, so the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** what?

I'm done with this useless conversation.

 

[Ty Webb]

The FACT is quality of life at the "legacy" airlines is way down, pay is way down, and the airline industry is coming apart. Our profession is at an all time new low.... work rules and safety (rest) rules are under strong pressure all because you and our other fine LCC are whoring their employees in the name of $85 round trip tix from JFK to SFO...

Spoken like a true idiot.

The reason that your legacy carriers are in such a mess is because of bad management and greedy unions. Blaming other pilots for working a other carriers is just wishful thinking.

Try to get your mind around this one, pal:

Your carrier is keeping MY wages low by dumping seats into the marketplace at a price that you can't make money at. How do you like that? And you are perpetuating it by voting in lower and lower pay rates to enable them to keep doing it for longer, thereby depressing MY wages . . . . friggin' legacy scab!



Heh-heh.

 

[HA25]

Spoken like a true idiot.

The reason that your legacy carriers are in such a mess is because of bad management and greedy unions. Blaming other pilots for working a other carriers is just wishful thinking.

Try to get your mind around this one, pal:

Your carrier is keeping MY wages low by dumping seats into the marketplace at a price that you can't make money at. How do you like that? And you are perpetuating it by voting in lower and lower pay rates to enable them to keep doing it for longer, thereby depressing MY wages . . . . friggin' legacy scab!



Heh-heh.

Nice try Ty but I remember when you AirTrash guys were begging for DAL jobs after contract 2000.. no sorry, that dog don't hunt either... But I will say this, at least AirTrash pays better than JB....

as for Scab.... you AirTrash guys of all guys should be careful how you throw that one around..

 

[SOVT]

"no pal, you get a grip! ... JB320, so where's your pension plan? A and B fund?? "

I don't know about getting a grip, however I do know where my pension plan is after fifteen years of working for a legacy carrier. Gone!! If your retirement savings are not in your name, in an account that your company cannot touch you, in the simplest of terms, do not have a retirement plan. What you have is a lottery ticket. Hope you feel lucky on your 60th birthday.

 

[Ty Webb]

Nice try Ty but I remember when you AirTrash guys were begging for DAL jobs after contract 2000.. no sorry, that dog don't hunt either... But I will say this, at least AirTrash pays better than JB....

That just goes to show how times have changed, and apparently you haven't learned to change with them. I didn't work for AirTran before 9/11, so I don;t know how many guys went to DAL, but I'll bet ALL of them wish that they hadn;t now.

[QUOTE/]as for Scab.... you AirTrash guys of all guys should be careful how you throw that one around.. [/QUOTE]
If we have 50 scabs here out of 950 pilots, that's about 1% of the pilots here. Doubt your carrier has less than that.

While we're talking about names, that "AirTrash" stuff is really funny- if you're about 12. Looking at our equipment, and yours, which is a mishmash of thirty years' of different paint schemes, well, let's just say the "1980's Air Museum" called, and they're ready for your -200's. Send 'em on over, Rover.

As for yourself- you are obviously a very unhappy guy. Why else would you be spending your time on this board lashing out at people you've never met and wouldn;t have the stones to look at sideways while sitting at a stoplight in your Swedish Grocery Getter?

Logoff, pick up the phone, and call fcharter . . . . err, Charter. And if you don;t get help there . . . . .. nevermind.

 

[HA25]

No sir, I am not depending on and A or B fund either, thanks to our LCC friend... I can't.. I have a chuck of my $$ going into Whole Life insurance, the best investment tool IMHO in this economy.

As for Ty... don't let my colorful words make you think I'm not serious. I am very, very serious... and as a member of ALPA, watching our profession go down the drain thanks to "changing times" which to me is basically code for "LCC" ... I am sure unhappy about it. If you think I need to get a grip, or call for psych help, cool beans dude... I don't give a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**.. I know that you and your LCC pals are more culpable for the state of this industry than any $50/barrel oil, or any 9/11 attack...

The fact is if we all got paid the same HIGH wage and work under the same work rules... there would be no need to fight among ourselves... Managements would be on these message boards doing it... however, you guys decided to lower the bar, so here we now are.

When you raise it back up, I'll be the first one to eat crow and apologize to you personally.

 

[Ty Webb]

Yup.

It wasn't gouging the customers

It wasn't shoddy customer service

It wasn't billions wasted by management

It wasn't stuffing people into inefficient RJ's

It wasn't greedy unions

It wasn't an all-time high for oil prices

No, it was those lousy LCC guys. How could I have missed it?

You're right. Keep telling yourself that, if it makes you feel better. Have a nice life, in your little Swedish Station Wagon.

 

[HA25]

Yup.

It wasn't gouging the customers

It wasn't shoddy customer service

It wasn't billions wasted by management

It wasn't stuffing people into inefficient RJ's

It wasn't greedy unions

It wasn't an all-time high for oil prices

No, it was those lousy LCC guys. How could I have missed it?

You're right. Keep telling yourself that, if it makes you feel better. Have a nice life, in your little Swedish Station Wagon.

That's right, I forgot Airtrash is best rated for customer service, and has one of the best managements in the business world... I forgot. sorry.... (I need to put the crack pipe down)...

And what's wrong with my wagon? What does that have to do with the discussion here?

 

[Ty Webb]

If you had our management, you wouldn't have 2000 guys on furlough, I'll tell you that. You're living in a dream world, Station-wagon Man. I'm not going to spend more time bringing ou back to reality.

Have a nice life.

 

[thruthemurk]

TY

[/QUOTE]If we have 50 scabs here out of 950 pilots, that's about 1% of the pilots here. Doubt your carrier has less than that.


Who does your descent planning?? I think 50 scabs out of 950 would be about 5%. And 50 sounds a bit low, doesn't it??

 

[ivauir]

Ok for the record; I like your thunder wagon, and think DAL is by and large a good company and was on the "list" to interview there but ended up starting at SWA instead...

So there is your full disclosure ...

I know that you and your LCC pals are more culpable for the state of this industry than any $50/barrel oil, or any 9/11 attack...
... however, you guys decided to lower the bar, so here we now are.

Of course I think you are wrong ... does it surprise you that a business model created in a regulated environment cannot prosper in a deregulated one? But who cares what I think? The real question is what to do about it. I hope you guys can develop a plan that works and deliver the lifestyle you desire, but I am pretty sure whinning will not "get 'er done".

 

[HA25]

There are a lot of guys here that need to go back and read, or re-read Flying The Line, the History of ALPA book.. or we're doomed to repeat history.

I've said/whined enough on this thread.