The Passion of the Christ

[Timebuilder]

Not only are the Jews still here, but Christians the world over are concerend for them and the sovereignty of their homeland.

 

[Super 80]

Sorry, but that's circuitous reasoning...how can you put this off on Jesus when all we know of his teachings is what was written by Christians?

I find this sentiment among detractors as well as professed believers: it all has to be done on faith alone. Now while Faith is what saves you, and True Faith will have Works to evidence it; I reject that the only way there is to believe is by faith because I came to faith by reason. Like many that run hot and cold, I came to faith in Christ from being an atheist and literally trying to disprove God.

You haven't even taken the time to examine the Gospel, so how do you know what His teaching is to criticize it? How do you know that the only thing there is to know about Christ is from the Gospel?

Josephus wrote about Christ. The Gospel account is not the only record of Jesus.

Josephus; Jewish Antiquities; Book 18, Chapter 3
(63) Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. (64) And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

I am also getting tired of the "circular" argument. How hard is it to establish a fact these days? If you don't see it yourself, or feel it, or can't give a web address where you can watch a video, evidently it doesn't exist.

How else were the earliest Christians, all Jews by the way, to tell us of Jesus? They didn't have camcorders or cameras in their cell phones. The Renaissance movement was 1300 years away so even paintings in perspective were not possible. Nor were these people able to preserve what little artifacts remained (since there is no body to preserve...) because they were persecuted for three hundred years after Christ. (Although there is evidence of a first century Church at the alternate crucifixion site at the base of the skull of Golgotha complete with a two ton circular stone used to enclose a burial crypt of that era.)

Up until this modern age, you established fact with witness. There were a dozen witnesses to Jesus' entire ministry. There were thousands that saw Him teach. Hundreds saw Him resurrected. In fact a Judge of the past century said there is no more proof of Jesus' claims that can be made in a Court of Law as to establish a fact as there is in the Bible. And fifty days after the Sabbath of the Passover week, three thousand came to believe in the One God sent. These Jews were in Jerusalem. They knew of Jesus, and could speak to those that knew Him and of Him. These facts have been established.

Jesus Himself said that the witness of two or more satisfied the requirements of the Law in the Old Testament. He was the first witness and the Father through His miracles was the second. Just as God established Moses as the Deliverer to the Jews of Egypt! Well after His and God's witness, we have the witness of those that were there.

These facts have been established. The only circular argument is to say they made it all up, because if they did, then you don't have to believe. But how do so many eye-witnesses to the miracles of Jesus are going to die for professing their belief when if, as you say, they're lying, and their faith is worthless and they know it? Well all the Apostles save John were martyred -all without giving up their faith. Now you reason with me, how is it that they were willing to die for nothing?

(Only Jesus says it's been done for you.)
And you consider this to be a good thing?

Yes, don't you?

`The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes' ? (PS 118:22-23)

 

[TWA Dude]

In my way of thinking, if the Bible can be verified to be accurate in it's historical and prophetic terms, I am happy to accept that it's other, non-provable contents are also true.

Actually I'm a large advocate of the Hebrew Bible as an historical document, however, that history is often told metaphorically or allegorically. (I realize some choose to interpret the Bible word-for-word literally and frankly that's scary.) I've mentioned this in previous threads, but there's a book written by a nuclear physicist who happens to be an Orthodox Jew: Genesis and the Big Bang by Gerald Schroeder. I attended a lecture by him in Jerusalem and he blew my mind. He ties the Genesis story of Creation into the Big Bang theory. As far as I'm concerned there's no conflict between science and religion. They both describe the same processes but in differing terms. Good stuff if you're interested.

As far as the non-historical, non-provable contents of the Bible all I can say is that one has to choose to believe it. My very personal opinion is that the Bible has stories to tell, lessons to teach, and commandments to deliver -- yet the depicted conversations need not to have happened verbatim. Poetic license, if you will.

Dude

 

[TonyC]

As far as the non-historical, non-provable contents of the Bible all I can say is that one has to choose to believe it. My very personal opinion is that the Bible has stories to tell, lessons to teach, and commandments to deliver -- yet the depicted conversations need not to have happened verbatim. Poetic license, if you will.

Although this perspective must seem quite clever and self-satisfying to those who hold it, it doesn't conform to the scripture. Inasmuch as the word claims to be inspired (not some cute collection of fables), we much conclude that either the claim comes from a liar - - in which case we should trust none of it - - or from a lunatic - - in which case we should trust none of it - - or from God - - in which case we should trust all of it.

 

[TWA Dude]

...I reject that the only way there is to believe is by faith because I came to faith by reason.

That's nice, but of course many arrive at different conclusions using reason.

You haven't even taken the time to examine the Gospel, so how do you know what His teaching is to criticize it?

My admittedly incomplete knowledge of Christianity knows that Jesus' teachings make people do good things. Most religions do the same. I don't recall criticizing anything but if it makes you feel better I am also critical of some teachings of Judaism.

Josephus wrote about Christ. The Gospel account is not the only record of Jesus.

This is news to me. I knew that Josephus wrote of the siege of Masada in the 70's C.E. but I didn't realize that he was an eyewitness to the goings-on of Jesus some years earlier. Was he?

I am also getting tired of the "circular" argument. How hard is it to establish a fact these days?

Good point. It depends on what you're trying to prove and who the judge is. Your "facts" differ from my "facts". Who's to judge? My guess is that neither of us will find out while we're still alive.

Up until this modern age, you established fact with witness. There were a dozen witnesses to Jesus' entire ministry. There were thousands that saw Him teach. Hundreds saw Him resurrected.

The Christian Bible tells you there were all those witnesses. You must choose to believe the accounts.

These facts have been established. The only circular argument is to say they made it all up, because if they did, then you don't have to believe.

Hmmm. You may be onto something there...

But how do so many eye-witnesses to the miracles of Jesus are going to die for professing their belief when if, as you say, they're lying, and their faith is worthless and they know it? Well all the Apostles save John were martyred -all without giving up their faith. Now you reason with me, how is it that they were willing to die for nothing?

How is it that Jews during the Inquisition were martyred -all without giving up their faith? At Masada? Arab homocide-bombers in Israel are willing to die just to kill a few civilians. People can be zealous about the strangest things sometimes.

And for the record I haven't accused anyone of lying. One needn't be lying to tell an untruth. I wasn't there so I need to choose which version of history to believe -- and I've made my choice -- through reason.

(Only Jesus says it's been done for you.)And you consider this to be a good thing?
Yes, don't you?

No. Quite frankly I don't like the idea that one must profess faith in another man for salvation. Furthermore I don't like the idea of a religion that tells other religions they must do the same. Yeah, I know, it's G-d's demand and not yours. Tell it to the Judge.

 

[TWA Dude]

Inasmuch as the word claims to be inspired (not some cute collection of fables), we much conclude that either the claim comes from a liar - - in which case we should trust none of it - - or from a lunatic - - in which case we should trust none of it - - or from God - - in which case we should trust all of it.

I couldn't disagree more. You can trust all of it. So what if G-d chooses to deliver His message through an interesting story? He's G-d; he can do what He wishes, right?

Dude

 

[wms]

First I note no one was put up a counter-argument to Timebuilder's excellent defense of the Bible in all its versions, and I'd also like to thank Tony C for his contribution. For surplus1 I would add that there are legitimate reasons for differing versions. Because Greek and Hebrew incorporate words that do not have a one-for-one translation, it is not always possible to render the exact verbiage as was written into a meaning that has the same impact in our language. This sets up two different and competing schools of translation, word-for-word and thought-for-thought. While the latter can include some verses that may be over-stretched, those same verses can lose meaning otherwise.

Here is some info from a study by Sue Winter and exerpts from New Age Bible Versions (Ripler), 700+ pages.

As was mentioned, the KJV was compiled in the 1500s by Miles Coverdale from over 5000 manuscripts meticulously reproduced by scholars in the early centuries AD known as the Textus Receptus. When measured against 5000 manuscripts which support each other, the KJV has less than 1% inaccuracy, or more than 99% accuracy.

In the mid 1800s two men, Wescott and Hort sought to replace the "villainous"(their words) KJV. They were commissioned by Macmillan publishing with a scheme to compose a new bible. They used only two of the 5000 manuscripts available, the Sinaiticus Aleph and Vaticunus B, known as Aleph and B, written in the fourth century. These are the only two texts which fundamentally disagreed with the 5000 known manuscripts and were immediately dismissed by early christians and biblical scholars alike as inaccurate and heretical. The men and their committee rather used these manucripts along with their "intuition and instinct" (thought by thought) to pervert God's Word. The result was the Greek NT or Revised Version (RV). Virtually all modern Bibles, NLT, NASB, etc are derivitives of this work. Some of their beliefs were:
The devil is not real.
Hell is not real.
You must pay for your own sins and are saved only through baptism.
Everyone goes to heaven, so the Gospel is that we're all ok before God.
Jesus sinned.
There was no resurrection.
Christ did not suffer.
Jesus was created.
And other obsurd things.

The NIV was edited by Edwin Palmer and a committee of nine, including two homosexuals. According to Palmer and his associates:
Being born again does not mean accepting Jesus as your Saviour.
The orginal texts do not say that Jesus is God.
That John 3:16 is wrong.
They changed convicting words for social acceptance.
The Bible is only men's words.
Jesus was called God's son because of obedience and not relationship.
The NT does not sanction the worship of the Lord Jesus.
That the condemnation of homosexual offenders 1 Corr 6:9, NIV means those that offend homosexuals.
And other wrong doctrine.

The KJV from 5000 manuscripts of the Textus Receptus or some other version from Aleph and B with a sordid history? I choose the KJV of the Bible to read because it has the best credentials. It may not be perfect. It was, after all, transcribed by human hands. But transcribed is better than rewritten.

As far as reading level goes. If you get past the thees and thous, the KJV is on a 6th grade reading level according to Flesch-Kinkaid Grade Level Indicator.

PS The word of God is living, and can speak to anyone in any form. But a believer should be growing in the truth, and passing it on. I was saved shortly after being scared to death by reading Revelations in a complimentary from Days Inn modern english version of the NT only.

 

[Timebuilder]

Quite frankly I don't like the idea that one must profess faith in another man for salvation. Furthermore I don't like the idea of a religion that tells other religions they must do the same. Yeah, I know, it's G-d's demand and not yours. Tell it to the Judge.

You don't have to "tell it to the judge."

The judge is "telling it to you."

Big difference.

 

[wms]

Candidly, I think that people who did not even exist for 1500 years of Christianity have a he!! of a nerve telling me that "Christianity contradicts Catholicism". I'm old enough to have spent nearly sixty years listening to Reformists, otherwise known as Protestants, telling me that they are Christians and I am not. I'm sick of it and feel no need to be "politically correct" in responding. If Protestants expect me to be tolerant of their beliefs, then they need to be equally tolerant of mine.

Catholicism, Protestants, Denominationalism all contradict the Bible. The only religion instituted by God was Judaism, and it ended at the cross. God through His word has given plenty of instruction concerning how the church is to be organized, practice, gather and worship. There is no instruction about how to be a Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, etc. The believer is given instruction on how to gather around Jesus Christ alone and no other person or doctrine. And anyone who deviates from the instruction in the Word of God is disobedient to God Himself. Funny, we would not change the Gospel, but when it comes to honoring Christ and being obedient to God, we think we have a better way. But the only way acceptable to God is given in the Bible and the only expiration of those teachings is the return of the Lord Himself.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Surplus,
I'm sorry that you feel the reformists are saying bad things about your religion, (as you did about theirs), but I think you are just misunderstanding their intentions. I agree that Catholisism is the oldest christian religion, and I applaud them for standing up for their beliefs against a lot of critisism. I don't think they follow individual priests, and although I'm not an expert, I do believe you follow the Pope. However, it's not meant to offend you that the protestants feel that some catholics might not be christians, it's because of a concern for your very soul.

I guess it depends on your definition of christian, as I believe it literally means Christ follower. Of course, the Catholics follow Christ. However, I think the Catholic church has some teachings that are false. I'm not sure why you feel that the Bible should not be taken literally, except for one passage where Christ said to Love God with all of your heart mind and soul, and love your brother as yourself. How can only one sentence be okay, and the rest of it a problem of interpretation? Well, you have gone over the interpretation thing, and I can't add to that. However, I can speak to why protestants feel that some catholics are not christians. My definition of a christian, is someone who is saved, who is going to Heaven because of a saving faith in Jesus Christ. If you have done that, accepted Christ as your savior, you are a christian. It doesn't matter if you are catholic or baptist or whatever. Most protestant religions believe this, and their doctrinal differences are minor and of less importance. Some just have differences in the way they worship, and I see nothing wrong with that.

I have no problem with you, or any other catholic person. I disagree with some of the beliefs of your faith, but I don't see that as an attack. However, I do see that you have attacked protestants by calling them names, and saying we are saying bad things about your church. But, really, church doesn't matter. It's your relationship with God that matters. I only tell you this because I am concerned for your soul. I'm sorry if you take this as a personal attack, or one against your church, but that is not how it is presented. It's just an invitation, and it's not mine, it's Gods. When you finally get to meet Him, what church you went to, or what someone else said about you won't matter. I'm sure you agree with that. Thanks for listening.