The other space shuttles???

[UnAnswerd]

Discovery was launched yesterday, but what about Atlantis and Endeavor??? Anyone know if these shuttles are actually different from Discovery, or are they a carbon-copy??? Why is it the other shuttles were not launched??? Are these shuttles even in service anymore, or are they pretty much monuments on display???

 

[Flying Illini]

not sure why Discovery was chosen, maybe they are on a rotation? I would imagine that they are near carbon copies of each other.

side note: I believe Discovery was also the first shuttle to fly after the Challenger disaster.

 

[Bluto]

Can't we do better than 30 year old technology? Why are we still relying on these dinosaurs for our space program?

 

[Flying Illini]

I don't know the exact date, but they are scheduled for retirement...2010 maybe? If that's true, we'd better start working on a new design and pronto...5 years isn't much time to develop space craft.

 

[TheRaven]

Atlantis and Endeavour both started out as all glass cockpits, while Discovery was retrofitted. I believe that Discovery was chosen because it was the shuttle most recently overhauled prior to the Columbia disaster. I think that both of the others are in their respective facilities at the KSC and are both in the rotation for launch.

 

[NEDude]

Atlantis is the next scheduled to fly, and Endeavour after that. Just where they happened to be in the rotation, and which one they felt they could get flight ready first.

They are, for the most part, carbon copies of each other with some minor differences.

Of all the orbiters built (not incl Enterprise), Columbia was the most different. It had a lot of test equipment that the later shuttles did not have - most was for the first "test" flights of STS1-4, but it was taken offline in 1984 and 1985 and modified with some additional test equipment, which data from actually aided in the investigation into its demise in '03. The test equipment also made Columbia heavier than the other orbiters and thus less capable for some of the heavier lifting missions and ISS missions.

Some minor improvements were made to each successive orbiter, with the older ones being modified at various times.

Endeavour was built mostly from spare parts as the replacement for Challenger.

Atlantis and Endeavour both started out as all glass cockpits, while Discovery was retrofitted.

According to the Nasa web site, no orbiter was delivered with a glass cockpit. Atlantis was the first to receive the retrofit to the all glass display and the system first flew on STS-101 in May 2000. Columbia had been retrofitted before its last flight, and Discovery and Endeavour have been upgraded during the downtime since the Columbia accident.

Endeavour was delivered in 1991 with significantly improved avionics over the other orbiters, but it was not the current glass cockpit set-up.

 

[UnAnswerd]

Can't we do better than 30 year old technology? Why are we still relying on these dinosaurs for our space program?

Well, we haven't sent a man past LEO since the 1970's, and realistically, the shuttle is still a pretty efficient machine for LEO operations. Of course, I'm sure we can do better. Any ideas on what the next reusable spacecraft will be like???

 

[seethru]

I also remember that Discovery originally was not intended to actually fly. It wasn't until after the Challenger accident that they fitted it for flight, since they needed another orbiter. Am I correct in this?

It also looks like the whole program is on hold now that the video of the launch showed more insulation separating from the large orange fuel tank.

Clear skies!

 

[UnAnswerd]

Endeavour was built mostly from spare parts as the replacement for Challenger.

LOL. That's gotta be reassuring to the crew.

 

[mzaharis]

Columbia was probably the most different, followed by Challenger. Columbia was the heaviest by a good margin (8400 pounds), which made it inappropriate for ISS missions. Additionally, considerable improvements were made to the Thermal protection system. Columbia didn't have any of the silicon thermal blankets, but used white-covered tiles in medium temperature areas. I think that Challenger had some of the blankets, but not as many as the later orbiters (Discovery, Atlantis, and Endeavour), all of which had similar thermal protection system installations. Don't know about cockpit configurations. Columbia also had a camera on the top of the vertical stabilizer to take thermal images of reentry heating.

Discovery was always intended to be a flying orbiter. Enterprise was once intended to be converted into a flying orbiter, but it was decided that it was not worth it to convert it to orbital flying status after the glide tests. It never had real engines, a thermal protection system, and lacked many other systems not necessary for testing of the craft during its final descent (the 747 piggyback "drop" tests).

BTW, the next US space vehicle will not be reusable. The CEV is an expendable concept, that is part of NASA's plan to go to the Moon, and eventually Mars. It is based on non-reusable elements, which may not be so bad, as many of the Shuttle's more troublesome features (such as the tile-based and RCC-based thermal protection system, and the expensive and complex main engines) were due to reusability.

 

[KigAir]

Can't we do better than 30 year old technology? Why are we still relying on these dinosaurs for our space program?

What is our space program accomplishing?

 

[canyonblue737]

Atlantis and Endeavour both started out as all glass cockpits, while Discovery was retrofitted. I believe that Discovery was chosen because it was the shuttle most recently overhauled prior to the Columbia disaster. I think that both of the others are in their respective facilities at the KSC and are both in the rotation for launch.

none started as glass. they have each received the glass during their 5 year overhaul cycles. the glass is ala southwest, it shows "round dials" to keep the training easy between models until such time as they can design a new software package to include more use of color and some tape displays etc.

endeavour is currently in a major overhaul cycle, i think getting its glass and i think for the first time ever being done at the cape vs. california. atlantis is in the vehicle assembly building having been or about to be mounted to the stack of the external tank and solid rocket boosters for the sept. launch but that is now in jeapordy after a large piece of foam still came off the tank during the discovery launch.

 

[mzaharis]

What is our space program accomplishing?

Right now, the human spaceflight program is mostly upholding treaty and contractual obligations to other countries in the construction of the ISS, whose scientific output has been rather open to question. Unmanned is doing some pretty interesting science. The CEV and NASA's future plans hopefully represent a change in direction back to exploration and expansion of the horizons for humanity (cue inspiring music). We'll see if they can deliver on the promise, and if our political leadership can maintain a consistent vision beyond a single administration, and not let it be sacrificed to a program that sometimes has been used to justify its own industrial base.

 

[canyonblue737]

each shuttle got less heavy in order, columbia was by far the heaviest. it also lacked hardware for space station docking and its weight made it unlikely to reach the station... BUT in the years before the ill fated 2003 flight they made the decision to put the hardware in and lighten it up a bit and had actually assigned it a mission to the ISS. the columbia had a thermal camera in the tail and extensive test wiring from the orginal flights still in place along with a CVR like box that none of the others had. that box actually survived the 2003 crash and provided data on the breakup.

endeavour was only constructed after congress provided funding for it after the challenger was destroyed and it is made up of mostly spare parts destined for the other orbiters.

 

[canyonblue737]

not sure why Discovery was chosen, maybe they are on a rotation? I would imagine that they are near carbon copies of each other.

side note: I believe Discovery was also the first shuttle to fly after the Challenger disaster.

the picked was based on the overhaul cycle. i think discovery was either just out of overhaul or perhaps IN overhaul so it was easiest to modify with the columbia board recommended safety changes. atlantis is also done and ready to fly. endeavour is currently in major overhaul and can't fly till 2006. discovery was the first shuttle to fly after the challenger explosion.

 

[9GClub]

What is our space program accomplishing?

http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html

We also fly in space 'cause it's there.



In related news, this insulation-shedding propensity is freaking me out, guys. NASA brass is now saying that the largest piece that fell off this time "could have been bad"...... by which of course they mean a repeat of three years ago. As much as I love to see them fly, blowing chunks so consistently is unacceptable.

I'm sure they've looked into alternative fuel sources.... wasn't Spaceship One a few months ago powered by solid rubber and alcohol? Don't quote me on that, but something like that might eliminate the need for thermal insulation. Somebody who knows what they're talking about please chime in.

 

[Fly_Chick]

atlantis is in the vehicle assembly building having been or about to be mounted to the stack of the external tank and solid rocket boosters for the sept. launch but that is now in jeapordy after a large piece of foam still came off the tank during the discovery launch.

How many orbiters fit in the VAB at one time?

 

[Bluto]

What is our space program accomplishing?

If we had something more efficent, maybe we could do something more with it than re-arrange satellites and stick pieces on the ISS. I think space exploration is important to our future, but if NASA can't handle it maybe privately owned and financed operations are the way of the future. I just have to wonder, considering the cost, if the shuttle is the best tool for the job.

 

[canyonblue737]

How many orbiters fit in the VAB at one time?

certainly only one in the stacked configuration, but perhaps you could fit another waiting to go since the building was made to house the saturn V. i have never seen more than 1 in there at a time.

 

[EagleRJ]

-Challenger was originally intended to be the test vehicle, while Enterprise was going to be a flight vehicle. They were switched due to the fact that Enterprise was going to be finished far earlier.

-SpaceShipOne was powered by a cast solid fuel consisting mostly of tire rubber, with nitrous oxide as an oxidizer. That choice of fuel had the advantage of being benign and non-explosive, but it lacks the Specific Impulse (basically gas mileage) of hypergolics. The liquid hydrogen/oxygen powered engines on the Orbiter develop far more thrust per pound of propellant.
The SS1 doesn't require the same thermal insulation as the Shuttle because it isn't exposed to the same heat. SS1 essentially freefalls from 360,000', and the only heating is due to the speed built up from falling in a vacuum. It has a lot of drag in the "feathered" position, and doesn't weigh a lot, so Mach number- and heating- is kept to a minimum. The Shuttle is orbital, and must aerobrake from around 18,000 MPH in order to re-enter the Earth's atmosphere. It obviously weighs a lot for its frontal area, so heating is much higher.

-There have been several attempts to develop a replacement for the Shuttle. The most mature was the X-33, a single stage to orbit lifting body with a more efficient "aerospike" engine that would serve as a technology demonstrator for a much larger version, called the VentureStar. The program was making good progress, but was killed due to funding issues.
Sounds like this flight may be the last for a while. NASA has grounded the Shuttle fleet pending resolution of the debris issue.

 

[bocefus]

"How many orbiters fit in the VAB at one time?"

3 stacked and one horizontal, if you had 4 total.

 

[SuperFLUF]

Can't we do better than 30 year old technology? Why are we still relying on these dinosaurs for our space program?

Money, money, money, monaaaay............

We could do better, and have had plans to do better, but nobody wants to pay for it.

The X-30 would have been a step in the right direction:

http://www.fas.org/irp/mystery/nasp.htm

 

[mzaharis]

http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html

We also fly in space 'cause it's there.



In related news, this insulation-shedding propensity is freaking me out, guys. NASA brass is now saying that the largest piece that fell off this time "could have been bad"...... by which of course they mean a repeat of three years ago. As much as I love to see them fly, blowing chunks so consistently is unacceptable.

I'm sure they've looked into alternative fuel sources.... wasn't Spaceship One a few months ago powered by solid rubber and alcohol? Don't quote me on that, but something like that might eliminate the need for thermal insulation. Somebody who knows what they're talking about please chime in.

I find that justifying NASA as industrial policy due to spinoffs is suspect. Certainly, we have gotten certain technological spinoffs from NASA. The question is, however, what economic benefit would you have gotten from either leaving that money in the public's pocket, or investing in any other arbitrary technical goal (say, the Superconducting SuperCollider, or Sematech, or some other technological investment). Dual-use technologies, as much as NASA tries to draw attention to them, are few and far between. Economists generally find a poor return on investment for money invested this way. Don't get me wrong, I'm a strong supporter of human spaceflight, I'm just not going to pretend that Mylar, Formulaid, and improved golfballs is the reason why it is a valuable investment, or that these or similar technologies wouldn't come around if the money were left in the public sector. The program needs to be justified first and foremost on what it gives us in terms of exploration and expanding the human vista.

Space exploration and high energy physics always use the "Spinoffs" argument, because many people are unable or unwilling to accept that the primary benefit of these fields (expansion of human knowledge) is an end that justifies public investment, even of the relatively small amounts involved by NASA (<1% of US Gov't budget, part of which is industrial research for the aerospace industry, making that next Boeing airplane that much better - OK, maybe Boeing should pay for that itself).

SpaceShip One uses the fuel system due to simplicity of engine design and manufacture for a throttleable engine. It doesn't make any difference on the thermal protection system, which comes into play on reentry, when the engines are off. SpaceShip One had a much more benign thermal entry regime due to its relative low speed (<M4, vs. M25 on Space Shuttle entry interface).

BTW, the shuttle solid rocket engines use a combination of aluminum powder, a rubber binder/fuel, and ammonium perchlorate as the fuel and oxidizer.

EDIT - Sorry Eagle RJ, read your response - you had already addressed some of this.

 

[mzaharis]

-There have been several attempts to develop a replacement for the Shuttle. The most mature was the X-33, a single stage to orbit lifting body with a more efficient "aerospike" engine that would serve as a technology demonstrator for a much larger version, called the VentureStar. The program was making good progress, but was killed due to funding issues.

I remember it having some terrible technology issues, such as the inability to build appropriate fuel and oxidizer tanks out of Carbon Fiber (carbon and resins tend to react badly with liquid oxygen). I was getting rather skeptical that they could have gotten the appropriate propellant mass fractions that would have been necessary to make VentureStar a viable project. They had to back off of their performance claims a number of times, and that went a long way to killing off the project.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas all,

Anyone wonder why the external tank of the shuttle has all these problems lately?

Didn't they launch 50-60 flights with minimum problems with the tank?

The answer is actually in how the foam insulation is produced for the exterior of the external tank. Some flights back the chemical makeup for the foam was changed to a more "enviromentally friendly" formula, and it just can't stand up to the rigors of the job. They got lucky with a few flights before the Columbia disaster.

NASA knows that this is the problem, but for PR and other reasons, will not go back to the old method of manufacture.

Nu

 

[EagleRJ]

The answer is actually in how the foam insulation is produced for the exterior of the external tank.

I think most of the problems that have arisen from the new foam are related to application, not the properties of the foam itself. The new CFC-free foam is applied in a different way, and NASA has had trouble getting it applied without creating internal voids.

The problem with the foam, and the cause of most foam debris events, is a phenomenon called "cryopumping". That's when a void in the foam is refrigerated by the liquid fuel in the tank, which causes the air in the void to contract, drawing in additional air from the atmosphere. When the Shuttle is launched and aerodynamic heating heats up the void, the gas expands so much that it pops a chunk of foam off the tank. Spraying foam on the tank and getting it absolutely free of voids is tough, but the porosity of the foam also plays a part. I think the new environmentally-friendly foam is more porous and more prone to cryopumping.

The basic problem with debris is the general design of the Shuttle stack. Previous multi-stage rockets lost plenty of foam and other debris, but it wasn't in danger of damaging the vehicle. With the Shuttle, we've got fragile, mission-critical componants (the RCC on the leading edge) behind and below material that is prone to fall off. In retrospect, that's a bad idea! Any future winged-recovery vehicles will need to be smaller designs that are mounted at the very top of the launch vehicle to avoid damage from falling debris.

 

[mzaharis]

Some of these problems have been occurring all along, but weren't thought to be "safety of flight" issues. They've beeng getting dings in tiles for a long time. Just that, after a certain chunk (the bipod covering, which isn't a spray-on, but a glue-on) fell off and shattered a leading edge RCC panel, leading to a loss of spacecraft, people have been noticing what has been happening much more closely. I also believe that EagleRJ is correct that new foam mandated by environmental considerations has led to greater problems with foam adhesion.

If you're at the library and don't mind poring through back issues of Aviation Week, they had some great articles on the subject - you'll just have to go through the last year's issues.

 

[9GClub]

SpaceShip One uses the fuel system due to simplicity of engine design and manufacture for a throttleable engine. It doesn't make any difference on the thermal protection system, which comes into play on reentry, when the engines are off. SpaceShip One had a much more benign thermal entry regime due to its relative low speed (<M4, vs. M25 on Space Shuttle entry interface).

Eagle and MZ,

Thanks for the info, that helped.

The thermal insulation I was referring to is the foam on the external tank, not the tile matrix on the orbiter. A SS1-esque fuel configuration (or something besides LOX/hydrogen) would make a difference because you wouldn't need to insulate the fuel tank(s).

Alternatively, fly with the current fuel setup and just bolt the landing craft to the top of the rocket. That wouldn't solve NASA's apparent birdstrike problems (I'd love to see a video clip from the camera that caught that incident), but it would be a step in the right direction in terms of foam impacts.

 

[mzaharis]

Eagle and MZ,

Thanks for the info, that helped.

The thermal insulation I was referring to is the foam on the external tank, not the tile matrix on the orbiter. A SS1-esque fuel configuration (or something besides LOX/hydrogen) would make a difference because you wouldn't need to insulate the fuel tank(s).

Alternatively, fly with the current fuel setup and just bolt the landing craft to the top of the rocket. That wouldn't solve NASA's apparent birdstrike problems (I'd love to see a video clip from the camera that caught that incident), but it would be a step in the right direction in terms of foam impacts.

Yeah, NASA may use a solid fuel rocket (the existing Shuttle SRB) for the CEV, and the spacecraft would be mounted on top, out of the way. There are some good histories about why the Shuttle ended up with its current configuration, and it was all due to seemingly sound engineering decisions, but they all led to a very problematic vehicle configuration (solid rocket booster joints next to a liquid hydrogen tank, delicate thermal protection systems downstream from fragile foam insulation and ice accumulations, wacky load paths in an asymmetrical vehicle, etc.). Many of these requirements were due to the fact that the DOD kicked in money for it to be used for Defense missions (largely dropped after Challenger), particularly the large crossrange requirement for "abort-once-around" launches from Vandenburg (which never took place - read about the "Curse of Slick 6")

http://www.dailynexus.com/science/2001/1875.html

 

[TurboS7]

To be auctioned off at a TBA date, keep a watch out in your local USA Today.


ie: they would make a great restraunt