The landscape of our trade and possible Final consolidation

[Mach8Forest]

How do you see our landscape as we approach what could be termed as the final consolidation? I guess it depends on what color your jet is. I am sickened by what I see. I never imagined in my younger years seeing what I see now in our profession. Yes I will be the first to admit my perspective may seem a little rough as I have seen action, been in the trenches, and was wounded. My view is a little different than those warmongers that have not seen action yet or vote on it from a committee floor. Let me clarify, as I am not talking about real war or our veterans. I am voicing my opinion and views via analogy of final consolidation as it relates to (US the LABOR) the soldiers of aviation.
The senate is worried simply because the nation needs planes in the Air and without interruption or major capacity changes. The nation stops immediately if we do not fly (Hmm is that a little leverage?) The consumer demands cheap rates and competition despite the cost of providing such services. The Last big merger between AA/TWA left Missouri holding the bag with the unemployed and billions in unused facilities. No wonder they voiced their opinion about Delta/US Air and others as sparks will fly when the first one happens. In my opinion consolidation shockwave will resonate all the way through the LCC’s and the regionals. ​

Without national Unity the employees of the acquiring company will most likely gut the employees of the taken carrier. They have the example of APA’s action against TWA and their windfall. This will further weaken our long term ability to have better working conditions, benefits, and yes our pay The senator from Missouri voiced concern as it was organized labor that did this crime to TWA and Missouri. Yes the bean counters loved the greed of the AA employees because it saved them hundreds of millions. They got rid of high seniority players from the field and replaced them with virtual newhires. The facts are undisputed here folks, this was a crime committed by organized Labor (yes us).
Why do planes continue to fly despite the high cost of fuel?Because beancounters cannot figure out how to get them to fly without fuel! OPEC has a strong union.Why do pilots work for so little when compared to any similar tech career or profession?

Because the bean counters figured out how to exploit their individual self centered greed and use it against them. This greed keeps them from true strong Unity

. It keeps the spreadsheet cost down in the labor column. They know we will work for virtually nothing and cut each others throat to advance our individual career.​

The American employees are the poster children for bean counter strategy. The strategy started with them leaving ALPA, handing all of us the Bscale, and their last act of scabbing the careers/jobs from one of the founders of ALPA was their latest and biggest crime.​

I have heard this and maybe someone can confirm that the Tugboat captains that drive the barges up and down the Mississippi make 300 to 400k. They must have true unity, control supply and demand, organize their young, and have a real union to accomplish that. How did ALPA get so WORTHLESS?$$$$$$$$$$! Can some one tell me when and where it failed? It is my opinion that the national officers should not make more than the highest paid captain of all of their represented Airlines. (A little incentive?)

Why do we allow the Regional Jet guys to fly jets and get paid Beech 99 rates and benefits?
Can someone tell me why this continues as they are all part of a union?​

It is simply because we (organized labor) did not educate or organize our young. They could have built on the strength of knowing what our founders of ALPA fought for and the sacrifices they made. Another failure I believe is we allowed the bean counters to exploit our ego’s and we made them second class citizens on our stage. Just another example of failure for us Airline Pilots.If ALPA was strong couldn’t every contract with its members remain within 15% of each carrier for like kind equipment? No less should be accepted from these national unions members for flying? If some bean counters wanted to operate an airline they would have to put this rate into their spreadsheet and look elsewhere for savings or better yet do their jobs by finding revenue. Look at the pay and benefit disparity we have now between similar equipment size and routes. The only difference between us despite our ego’s is what color paint is on the jet you currently fly? Is your uniform brown or blue?

Well I guess I should quit dreaming about a true National Union and go to work. I am sure my neighbors think I make the big bucks. They know that I am a former TWA captain with 14000 hours experience and now simply just wear a different uniform. I drive the same type of smooth metal 500 miles per hour with fuel and 150 passengers that I flew at TWA. Reality is that with starting over in my 40’s with children I now do this for 40k.
Mach8!
PS Before you AAholes start bashing my post. I want you to look in the mirror and take responsibility for being number one. Yes you are in my opinion number one. I would say that you are the number one group for destabilizing our profession by leaving ALPA, Giving us the BSCALE, treating eagle as second class citizens, and Stapling Reno and TWA pilots etc, etc. These are just some of your acts and behaviors that have hurt our trade. Who and what is next on your list I am sure only the bean counters know. ​

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[bmpilot2003]

The Crane operators at Long Beach Port make 150K working one 4 hour shift a day. Makes you go HMMM? Why do you think ALPA cant do more? Thx for super sizing the text too. Would have never read your post otherwise.

 

[aa73]

OK, I took your advice and looked in the mirror...and I still see a good looking Italian Stallion. :laugh:

(No, Rocky wasn't standing behind me...)

Back on your medication, Mach, or I'll sic AAflyer on you.

 

[Mach8Forest]

Hello punkboy73,
I could have bet money that you would respond within 10 minutes of my post. I am guessing that you are a native american sitting reserve in STL right now. Just curious how many pilots did AA base in STL prior to the merger?
Now behave yourself or you are not going out at recess.
Maybe I should double my medication
Mach8

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The LCC's have removed the flexibility to adjust revenue streams to effectively manage costs. You lost money as a pilot because you company lost money as a business. The cost of changing the model to reflect the necessary condition would have cost way more than what has happened now. To effectively manage the business, airlines most consolidate to control the supply and demand of air travel.

Furthermore, when there is an oversupply of pilots, even with a strong union, it is impossible to prevent desperate employees from working for a lower rate of pay. However, the minimum pilot pay is the competitive rate that as a manager you must seek. Also, management has tried to ease the burden on shrinking to the airline to capacity. If the legacies had taken the necessary steps to reduce costs after the economy went down to keep the wages of the past, thousands more would have lost their jobs. Many small cities would also have been left without service.

Re-regulation is the key to allowing companies to regain control of the cost and revenue stream effective to running a carrier that provides a good pilot career. It's only a matter of time before this current process repeats itself if left uncontrolled. In fact we are only a couple years away from it happening again. This time all carriers will be included since we are now in a level playing field.

 

[TWA Dude]

Mach: regardless of the veracity of any of your points you will not succeed in shaming the APA. Their sense of entitlment is pretty much pervasive in our industry. Plus, in your blind anger you're going after the wrong guy in aa73. The PDP guys castigate him for being so "pro-TWA".

 

[Mach8Forest]

The LCC's have removed the flexibility to adjust revenue streams to effectively manage costs. You lost money as a pilot because you company lost money as a business. The cost of changing the model to reflect the necessary condition would have cost way more than what has happened now. To effectively manage the business, airlines most consolidate to control the supply and demand of air travel.

Furthermore, when there is an oversupply of pilots, even with a strong union, it is impossible to prevent desperate employees from working for a lower rate of pay. However, the minimum pilot pay is the competitive rate that as a manager you must seek. Also, management has tried to ease the burden on shrinking to the airline to capacity. If the legacies had taken the necessary steps to reduce costs after the economy went down to keep the wages of the past, thousands more would have lost their jobs. Many small cities would also have been left without service.

Re-regulation is the key to allowing companies to regain control of the cost and revenue stream effective to running a carrier that provides a good pilot career. It's only a matter of time before this current process repeats itself if left uncontrolled. In fact we are only a couple years away from it happening again. This time all carriers will be included since we are now in a level playing field.

Great Post.
Despite 9-11, the economy, chpt 11's, and mergers. We (pilots) have failed ourselves with our greed and faith in the leadership of our current national union. Should we have a revolution at ALPA or start another national union? Should we all just splinter off and let the best man win with separate unions at each property? Yourpilotfriend post was well thought out, logical and an accurate view.
Yes I am pissed at the punk73's that fly out of STL. They were in High school when furloughed captains from TWA were on the property and laying over in Athens, Paris, London, Etc. These captains will never give the aa73's a break. He is a member of an association that scabbed jobs that were not theirs to begin with. However back to the original post. Can we get control of our product/trade nationally? That is the question.
Mach8

 

[afres bum]

Pilot unions did not do a whole lot for the "front line soldiers" of Braniff, Continental, Eastern, and Pan AM who fell on their swords for the profession. My guess is that a majority of pilots are just now finding a fault in the system because it is happening to them. There was not an overwhelming show of support when this stuff was occuring over the previous 20 years.

 

[aa73]

Hello JockMach, you're right. I can't stand more than 10 minutes without poking some fun at your attempts to instigate. It's pretty fun since there's nothing more to do while sitting reserve here in LGA - not STL. (oops I mean SLT.) Yours truly, your friendly punk boy hittin' on all the chicks at recess
a.k.a. 73

 

[Mach8Forest]

Pilot unions did not do a whole lot for the "front line soldiers" of Braniff, Continental, Eastern, and Pan AM who fell on their swords for the profession. My guess is that a majority of pilots are just now finding a fault in the system because it is happening to them. There was not an overwhelming show of support when this stuff was occuring over the previous 20 years.

I agree with you that ALPA national could have done something on numerous occasions and they did nothing. When it looked as if Icahn had outbid Delta for a Pan AM/TWA merger our union openly told its members it would be Date of Hire with Fences.
Mach8

 

[Mach8Forest]

Hello JockMach, you're right. I can't stand more than 10 minutes without poking some fun at your attempts to instigate. It's pretty fun since there's nothing more to do while sitting reserve here in LGA - not STL. (oops I mean SLT.) Yours truly, your friendly punk boy hittin' on all the chicks at recess
a.k.a. 73

You’re a class act punkboy . I am sure your parents are proud of you. Did you know that we (TWA) brought 88 NY slots to the party? We had hundreds of pilots based there at JFK and LGA when your company bought TWA. Do you know how many TWA pilots are there today?
Mach8

 

[aa73]

You’re a class act punkboy . I am sure your parents are proud of you. Mach8

Well, Mach Shack, what can I say. My parents recognized the studliness even as I burst out of the womb... what with being equipped with impedimenta any stallion would be proud to own, my overall skewed view of things, and my Ladies' Man charm flowing out like lava... I'm like the Panama Canal, everything goes through me. Capish? Now, I've got a good pimp that probably works in your neighborhood, gimme a shout if you me to transform you into instant studly material. You could use it, my man.

Yours punkly, 73

 

[embdrvr]

Why do we allow the Regional Jet guys to fly jets and get paid Beech 99 rates and benefits?


​

That's an easy one.
Guys like you felt that flying smaller jets was beneath them and made the fatal mistake of giving that flying away. After all you wouldn't want your squadron buddies getting stuck in anything smaller than a 737.

 

[aussiefly]

Great post!

ALPA is Done ....... its time to burn it down and form an new association that actually represents its members. Time that the privledged few stop holding the rest of us out to ransom

 

[AC560]

It is simply because we (organized labor) did not educate or organize our young.

More so that unions abandoned their new members with B Scales and other concessions. The young members in turn are abandoning the senior members with their drive for 65.

I agree with the theme of your post though, selfishness is largely responsible for the destruction of organized labor in America. It will also be the reason why their won't be a national pilots seniority list/pay scale.

 

[rickair7777]

The Crane operators at Long Beach Port make 150K working one 4 hour shift a day. Makes you go HMMM? Why do you think ALPA cant do more? Thx for super sizing the text too. Would have never read your post otherwise.

This is true, but the odds against getting into that union are astronomical...they do it by lottery (with preferential treatment for the children of members of course!). Last time, time I think they had about 500,000 (yes a half a million) applicants...basically every able bodied person in SOCAL applies, doctors, lawyers, businessmen, pilots, farm workers, etc. I've got my app in!

 

[Mach8Forest]

That's an easy one.
Guys like you felt that flying smaller jets was beneath them and made the fatal mistake of giving that flying away. After all you wouldn't want your squadron buddies getting stuck in anything smaller than a 737.

For some pilots I would say your correct but you have the wrong guy here. We (TWA) did not give it away the (AA) bean counters did as the regionals have a much lower labor cost. I personally put more value in $$$, Days off, Retirement, and culture. The reason I did not accept the flow back to eagle was not based on the size of the jet. The 10 series DC9's were not much different than the regionals today absent the fuel burn.
Mach8