The "Dutch Roll?"

[TonyC]

Edited to correct some gramer.

Dutch Roll is the tendency, but the “erroneously” named coordination training-maneuver has been around for years. I think its time for diehards to recognize that too many people know of the training maneuver as dutch rolls to ignore. The term now has two very different meanings.

As a side point, the term coordinated flight has two meanings which are often more difficult to reconcile. One is the simultaneous use of flight controls (more than one) to achieve the desired result. The other is (simplified), the ball centered. The training maneuver dutch rolls are coordinated under the first definition and uncoordinated under the second.

It's grammar.

While the tendancy in our society is allow the repeated incorrect use of a word or definition to go on and adopt some sort of quasi-validity, it nevertheless does not make the incorrect definition or word any more correct. In this respect, I believe the French may be on to something. They vigorously defend the purity of their language, and they agree upon what words mean.

If in fact, both "definitions" are equally valid, they lead to a difficulty in using either definition in conversation. Suppose we are flying together in my Boeing 707. You say "Show me a Dutch Roll." I disengage the autopilot AND the Yaw Damper, and push forward on the right rudder pedal. The nose yaws to the right, and since I am not touching the yoke, the airplane slowly begins a right bank. I rapidly release the rudder input, the nose rapidly yaws back to the left, overshooting center, while the right roll is continuing. By the time the nose reaches it's leftmost travel, the rolling to the right has slowly transitioned to a roll back to wings level and then to the left.

This characteristic of my airplane is undesirable, and if left unchecked can lead to catastrophic failure of structural components. If I don't know how to stop it, or if you don't, then we could die. (There are accident reports to prove it.)

If you immediately start screaming at me "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!?!?" I would reply that I am showing you a Dutch Roll, just as you instructed.

"NO!" you might say. "This is what I meant for you to do." You might then demostrate the use of aileron (and spoilers) and rudders to control the airplane throughout a variety of coordinated and uncoordinated combinations of those controls.

"Well" I might then say "If that's what you wanted, you should have just said so."

Communication is difficult enough without having to deal with improper usage of words or phrases. The second series of maneuvers in this example is a coordiantion exercise. The first is an undesirable characteristic of some airplanes (and helicopters) that can be fatal.

As a side point, the term coordinated (in handling an aircraft) has but one meaning. It implies more than the simultaneous use of flight controls (more than one) to achieve a desired result. It means that the PROPER amount of rudder is used for the given power setting and aileron input. When a turn is coordinated, the ball will be, by definition, centered when a turn is coordinated.

I can simultaneously use right aileron and too much or not enough rudder, and the ball will not be centered. It will also not be coordinated.

Intentionally using too much rudder, or not enough rudder, or rudder in the opposite direction of a turn are elements of what we can refer to as "Coordination exercises."

 

[firstthird]

That's a very unique perspective on defending the english language Tony.

Seriously though, I'm with you and the misuse of words like 'unique' drives me crazy, although I think it may well be a losing battle. One good thing about english (especially american english) is that we adopt/steal words from other languages when they suit us. The French make up words and then try to get everyone to quit using a perfectly good word like 'email' because it isn't french enough.

In fact, my first reply to this dutch roll question was completely serious, since I had never heard of coordination exercises being called dutch rolls.

Then again, english is notorious for having multiple meanings and even parts of speech associated with a single word leaving context as the only clue to its intended use in that sentence. Apparently it drives people crazy who are trying to learn english who come from more ordered languages where you can count on a word to mean the same thing every time and not be a verb one time and a noun the next, not to mention just having 6 or 7 different definitions for the same word.

 

[Spellcheck]

Use of 'unique' etc.

Perhaps you are seeing if anyone will catch on, so I'll bite. Your last post mentioned your annoyance at the improper use of the word unique, but started with "That's a very unique perspective...” If unique means: one of a kind, then how can you modify it by placing 'very' in front of it? Very one of a kind?

I think a much larger problem on this board is the misuse (and accompanying misunderstanding) of their vs. there.

What do you think?

 

[firstthird]

Yes, I was being facetious with the 'very unique' since unique implies one of a kind, it can't be modified by very and still retain its meaning. But, no one cares anymore and even respected publications have started the very unique malady.

And yes, homonyms are killers it seems. Their, there, and they're; sound the same but are not in meaning. or too and to. They didn't used to call me LT Merriam-Webster for nothing. Of course, once you pick at someone's grammar or spelling, you set yourself up for all kinds of abuse if you screw up yourself, so I try to refrain. But I thought I'd throw in my two cents on the acceptance of bad definitions point made by Tony C.

 

[cubpilot]

Ok So you found me out. I can’t spell. Usually write all my post with MS Word first then cut & paste to post. After having done so on the offending post, I read it and found yet more errors. They were easily fixed so I did so with the edit feature of the board. Alas in copying the warning idea from someone else’s post I made yet another mistake.

As for the idea that “Dutch Rolls” as a maneuver would destroy the language, I and many others do that all the time with out the use of aircraft. Actually my idea of accepting as official, a “slang” use of the term came from the Official Oxford Dictionary.

I happen to like the type of music often played on public radio stations and being lazy one day I left the radio tuned to such a station during a discussion with the curator of that esteemed establishment. In the discussion the curator explained that English language was living and dictionaries constantly need updating to account for this. He also explained a rather complex method of determining when misused terms became accepted and thus published in the dictionary without the usual accompanying note that it was a misuse. I do not remember the details of how it went so I didn’t try to explain it here. But was putting my ½ cents worth to get the “maneuver meaning” officially accepted.

I first learned of dutch rolls as a maneuver when I first began flight lessons about thirty years ago. It was explained to be an incorrect, but commonly understood use of the term. There is little chance of getting the two uses confused, as the tendency is generally associated with swept back winged jets, and the training maneuver is generally use for students who fly little bug smashers like my cub. You wouldn’t want to perform the “maneuver” in a jet airliner, and any dutch roll tendency in Pipers and Cessnas is usually hidden by the need for more practice at the maneuver.

As for unique, according to my eight inch thick “Webster’s New International Dictionary”, second edition published by the G. & C. Merriam Company in 1943, the third definition for unique is peculiar; odd; queer. Thus allowing for the possibility of a degree of uniqueness.

Intentional use of opposite rudder (than aileron) is called a slip. In a slip the ball is out. Such a maneuver is commonly referred to as intentionally uncoordinated, even though the Flight Training Handbook published by the FAA contains a definition of coordination as “the simultaneous use of the flight controls to achieve the desired result”

Yes! The same book also makes use of the “intentionally uncoordinated” phrase.

Coordination could involve use of elevator simultaneous with aileron to achieve a desired result. An undesired result from an attempt to simultaneously use elevator and aileron could be the result of poor coordination.

Ahaa! Your right! We can’t communicate in English. Maybe we should use French as the international language of aviation.

 

[firstthird]

learn something everyday. never realized that unique could mean 'unusual' which makes it okay to modify. i've got a webster's international 2nd edition too, and the 3rd edition which is in 3 volumes but each is the size of an atlas and too much of a pain for normal use so I end up using the collegiate mostly (the shame) but that is where I found this interesting paragraph which was also on merriam-webster online, it is copied below for your reading pleasure. It is long, but interesting to anyone inclined that way. I don't think I've ever seen a big paragraph just about usage on a word like that in the dictionary. Must have caused a few donnybrooks I guess.

usage Many commentators have objected to the comparison or modification (as by somewhat or very) of unique; the statement that a thing is either unique or it is not has often been repeated by them. Objections are based chiefly on the assumption that unique has but a single absolute sense, an assumption contradicted by information readily available in a dictionary. Unique dates back to the 17th century but was little used until the end of the 18th when, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, it was reacquired from French. H. J. Todd entered it as a foreign word in his edition (1818) of Johnson's Dictionary, characterizing it as "affected and useless." Around the middle of the 19th century it ceased to be considered foreign and came into considerable popular use. With popular use came a broadening of application beyond the original two meanings (here numbered 1 and 2a). In modern use both comparison and modification are widespread and standard but are confined to the extended senses 2b and 3. When sense 1 or sense 2a is intended, unique is used without qualifying modifiers.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=unique

p.s. cubpilot, I didn't mean to call anyone out on grammar or spelling, just having some fun with Tony C about his comment on the different uses of the term 'dutch roll.' Oh, and let's not switch to French as the int'l language of aviation, if we did would we have to start carrying a white flag instead of the usual flashlight in our kit bags?

 

[TonyC]

As for the idea that “Dutch Rolls” as a maneuver would destroy the language, I and many others do that all the time with out the use of aircraft. Actually my idea of accepting as official, a “slang” use of the term came from the Official Oxford Dictionary

... [national] public radio stations ... English language was living and dictionaries constantly need updating ... But [ I ] was putting my ½ cents worth to get the “maneuver meaning” officially accepted. .

I understood your comment to be given in this spirit, and I appreciate your opinion. After my good-humored poke at your spelling of grammar, I only tried to offer an opposing opinion. While I understand the changing nature of the "approved" English language, I am opposed to adopting this usage of "Dutch roll" as correct.

I first learned of dutch rolls as a maneuver when I first began flight lessons about thirty years ago. It was explained to be an incorrect, but commonly understood use of the term. .

It would make a BIG difference if EVERYONE who was using the term incorrectly understood that fact. Then, perhaps, the confusion might be avoided.

There is little chance of getting the two uses confused, ...

And yet we've just witnessed such an instance. Recall, the first post on this thread was not couched in the context of any type of airplane. He just said, "Can anyone provide some tips or techniques on doing these?"

We can’t communicate in English.

We certainly make it difficult on ourselves sometimes, don't we?

 

[Wang Chung]

So ANYWAY...tell us how your checkout went, BoDean.