The Costa Citationair

[gunfyter]

Sorry, I looked up your hero's bio. He was associated with the John Birch Society & he was a longtime apologist for European fascism. He may be an old "liberal" ie. libertarian, but that does not make the man any cleaner about his obviously racist world views.

Where did you look it up... in comic book or Mother Jones?

Repeating the same thing over and over again still does not answer my question. Both the military and Obamacare receive Tax Dolllars. So once again why is a program that directly benefits civilians considered socialistic while the military is doing the same but somehow that type of spending is different. I for one see my Tax Dollars forcibly misspent on unnecessary and illegal wars while taking care of all citizen's health preventively through public access is somehow seen as evil. Both budget items are paid by Federal Tax Dollars. They are the same except obviously in your mind, therefore I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why?

Not the same...
General Welfare vs Individual Welfare ...

Military spending provides for the general welfare. It does not redistribute wealth from some persons to other persons. It is not benefiting any one individual at the expense of others. Military spending benefits all of us equally.

ObamaCare redistributes my money to other people. That's individual Welfare aka Charity. It benefits some individuals at the expense of everybody else.

That is stealing.

 

[gret]

Using tax dollars I send to the Fed to support the military benefits me as a US citizen as they protect our country and my family. I’m fine with that.

Using tax dollars to provide other citizens with health care, food stamps, extended unemployment benefits (99 weeks?), etc. does not benefit me or my family. Not saying these programs shouldn’t exist, but the expansion of these programs to where they are today burns my ass. They were meant to be safety nets, not a way of life.

 

[fischman]

What does this have to do with CitationAir?

 

[CA1900]

Military spending provides for the general welfare. It does not redistribute wealth from some persons to other persons.

I think Dick Cheney and David Lesar would disagree with that. They're millionaires many times over thanks to military spending.

 

[gret]

I think Dick Cheney and David Lesar would disagree with that. They're millionaires many times over thanks to military spending.

...and the members of the military, defense contractors, the pension funds that invest in defense contractors, unions and their members who work building military systems, etc. etc.

 

[tdwnds1]

Thread has been offically hijacked...we now return you back to the CitationAir disscussion.

 

[OHGOON]

Using tax dollars I send to the Fed to support the military benefits me as a US citizen as they protect our country and my family. I’m fine with that.

Really they do. I agree with that.

However the fact that the US military establishment outspends (with mine and your Tax Dollars) the next 20 largest military countries combined by a factor of 10x has nothing to do with protection and everything to do with greed and centralized economic planning (socialism??) benefiting only the very few. If this was happening outside the Pentagon most Americans would be outraged but since it's cleverly wrapped in a veneer of patriotic flag waving, it gets a free pass every time.

Using tax dollars to provide other citizens with health care, food stamps, extended unemployment benefits (99 weeks?), etc. does not benefit me or my family. Not saying these programs shouldn’t exist, but the expansion of these programs to where they are today burns my ass. They were meant to be safety nets, not a way of life.

Not benefiting you and your family? Ever considered how much higher the crime rates would be if these programs did not exist? I think lower crime rates do benefit all of us in society.

Ever tried to live on those benefits? I have; was raised by a single mom who lost her job several times. Not exactly a comfortable lifestyle, but without those benefits and programs, we would have become homeless and starved and she would have never been able to complete her degree which allowed her (and her family) the chance to solidly climb into the middle class. She worked hard all her life to support her kids and keep us off the streets. I hope you never have to experience that kind of need but maybe the next time this comes up you could at least judge those folks who are a little less harshly because you really have no clue as to the actual circumstances of their lives.

 

[OHGOON]

Thread has been offically hijacked...we now return you back to the CitationAir disscussion.

What discussion? All "right" thinking individuals here who are so anxiously anti union have convinced themselves that CA is over and done with because of those evil pinko mafiosi running the Teamsters.

Bet you Dollars to Donuts, none of them have ever lifted a finger themselves to help make CA a better place other than maybe volunteer for overtime while their brothers and sisters with lower seniority are getting furloughed.

All for one and one for one... right? uke:

Just sayin..

 

[OHGOON]

Where did you look it up... in comic book or Mother Jones?

Nope, googled him, found link to the Wall St. Journal, you know that really leftist leaning paper.

Not the same...
General Welfare vs Individual Welfare ...

Actually it is the same. It's only your opinion that one benefits all while the other benefits only one. It's your personal bias, nothing more.

Military spending provides for the general welfare. It does not redistribute wealth from some persons to other persons. It is not benefiting any one individual at the expense of others. Military spending benefits all of us equally.

Agreed, reasonable military spending does do that! However grossly unreasonable overspending on the military industrial complex like we do in the US these days does redistribute wealth in a major way. This is why the Halliburtons, Lockheed Martins and Boeings or our world are doing so well despite a slow economy. It definitely benefits some individuals disproportionately at the expense of all the others. You just chose to believe (contrary to the facts) that it benefits all equally.

ObamaCare redistributes my money to other people. That's individual Welfare aka Charity. It benefits some individuals at the expense of everybody else.

That is stealing.

Yes you're right again. (referring to the first half of post here) ObamaCare does all that and more! It makes access universal but still allows private interests to benefit by providing the insurance and healthcare. It redistributes all of our money, not just your own.

However, it's not charity and it's certainly not stealing, what rhetorical nonsense! Having healthier Americans at an overall lower cost will increase productivity of our Economy over the long term, that benefits us all. Every modern 1st World country has come to that conclusion except for the USA. If we hope to compete with the ever more powerful Chinese we better wake up and do, not only what is right, but also what is more cost effective.

Sorry bro, you have not answered my questions about how one type of Federal Spending is different from another because you cannot unless you intertwine it with your personal prejudices. Misusing political words like "socialism" only muddy the water and amp up the anxiety, preventing meaningful exchanges of ideas. Thank goodness there were enough other voters in this last election who saw through all of that and voted for their own better interests despite all the noise.

 

[gunfyter]

When Lenin tells you socialized medicine is the keystone to the Socialist State ... I don't know what else to tell you bro?

 

[Praetorian]

When Lenin tells you socialized medicine is the keystone to the Socialist State ... I don't know what else to tell you bro?

He has you on the ropes, so you trot out Lenin? Wasn't he actually a communist?

 

[gret]

When Lenin tells you socialized medicine is the keystone to the Socialist State ... I don't know what else to tell you bro?

Outstanding!!!! You deserve a gold star, at least!

Failing to accept the answers given to one' question is childish.

 

[gret]

He has you on the ropes, so you trot out Lenin? Wasn't he actually a communist?

"What is the difference between socialism and communism?

Socialism and communism are alike in that both are systems of production for use based on public ownership of the means of production and centralized planning. Socialism grows directly out of capitalism; it is the first form of the new society. Communism is a further development or "higher stage" of socialism."

"Socialism and communism are ideological doctrines that have many similarities as well as many differences. One point that is frequently raised to distinguish socialism from communism is that socialism generally refers to an economic system, and communism generally refers to both an economic system and a political system. The means of production are publicly owned in both systems, but the ways that money and resources are distributed are different. In socialism, each person is allotted resources according to his or her input, or amount of work, and in communism, each person is allotted resources according to his or her needs. Many people consider communism to be a "higher" or more extreme form of socialism."

Good grief...we're approaching communism....

 

[Praetorian]

"What is the difference between socialism and communism?

Socialism and communism are alike in that both are systems of production for use based on public ownership of the means of production and centralized planning. Socialism grows directly out of capitalism; it is the first form of the new society. Communism is a further development or "higher stage" of socialism."

"Socialism and communism are ideological doctrines that have many similarities as well as many differences. One point that is frequently raised to distinguish socialism from communism is that socialism generally refers to an economic system, and communism generally refers to both an economic system and a political system. The means of production are publicly owned in both systems, but the ways that money and resources are distributed are different. In socialism, each person is allotted resources according to his or her input, or amount of work, and in communism, each person is allotted resources according to his or her needs. Many people consider communism to be a "higher" or more extreme form of socialism."

Good grief...we're approaching communism....

Yea because under our current system, 'each person is allotted resources according to his or her input, or amount of work'. Right?

I'll bet that old money family I picked up in Aspen, who was coming off a two week ski vacation, on their way to puerto vallarta really works their pampered little asses off.

This country is now a plutocracy. About as far from socialism or communism as you can get.

 

[gunfyter]

How to Identify Socialism:

"... See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime.

Then abolish this law without delay, for it is not only an evil itself, but also it is a fertile source for further evils because it invites reprisals. If such a law — which may be an isolated case — is not abolished immediately, it will spread, multiply, and develop into a system...."

http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html#SECTION_G020

Obama Care takes property from people who it belongs to and gives to others who it does not belong to. That's not what happens with Defense or Road building etc..

 

[OHGOON]

Outstanding!!!! You deserve a gold star, at least!

Failing to accept the answers given to one' question is childish.

By your logic then: all the people who failed to accept the answers the Khmer Rouge Reeducation Camps provided were all childish then?

Let me give you another example of "childishness":

Mindlessly clapping for someone or something just because many others are doing it without actually knowing why or what they are clapping for.

Now if you really are that desperate for a gold star I can probably get one for you from my son who in Kindergarten has already figured out that just because it's shiny it's still just paper and unlike many here, he has no problem sharing some of his wealth.

 

[OHGOON]

http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html#SECTION_G020

Obama Care takes property from people who it belongs to and gives to others who it does not belong to. That's not what happens with Defense or Road building etc..

It actually does happen just like that when it comes to Defense and Road building. We take from you and me and give it to the Military Industrial Complex and or Paving companies who then proceed to give it to its management and to a lesser degree the share holders of said companies. I marvel at how you keep ignoring this basic fact and keep insisting that Healthcare spending is somehow different. It's not, and will not be different no matter how many old and tired Libertarians you trot out. Maybe if you spent your time keeping up with current events around the world a bit more rather than reading early 19th century French Revolution era propaganda, you might be less freaked out about the state of your world.

If you don't you, might end up believing we are "approaching communism", like your hilariously hysterical buddy gret.

Relax, no one in power in the US is a socialist or communist, we are today more than ever a solid Plutocracy, totally controlled by corporations. In other words the free market. Free for the rich, not so much for the other 99%. No worries though, as long as they are willing to allow a few scraps to fall off their tray tables once in a while (tinkle down??), you and your family will continue to be able to scrape by. If that doesn't offend your dignity you are free to carry on sycophantically supporting your self perceived betters.

BTW: Quoting Lenin? Really?? I would think you can't trust those Pinko Commies in anything they say... What's next, quotations from Mein Kampf?

 

[OHGOON]

I think Dick Cheney and David Lesar would disagree with that. They're millionaires many times over thanks to military spending.

Nah, they would just tell you they have earned it and there will always be enough lackeys around to swallow that.

BTW Look up the Fortune 400 and what they took home last year in just income. Divided into an hourly rate it comes out to well North of $90,000.00 an hour on average.

Keep that in mind next time you hear anyone cry poverty and "rising labor costs" They somehow never mention rising Greed Costs. I wonder why? :erm:

 

[gret]

...OK and your point is?

When you don't have a logical and intelligent position...the answer is to throw more on the wall and see if it sticks...

You asked a question and it was answered.

 

[gret]

Yea because under our current system, 'each person is allotted resources according to his or her input, or amount of work'. Right?

I'll bet that old money family I picked up in Aspen, who was coming off a two week ski vacation, on their way to puerto vallarta really works their pampered little asses off.

This country is now a plutocracy. About as far from socialism or communism as you can get.

They may have won the sperm lottery...but somebody did work their tails off and they should be able to do whatever they want with the benefits of their, or their ancestors, success.

Jealousy never is a good trait.