The air industry's worst nightmare

[SpiderMan]

First question. What is the engagement envelope for an effective MANPAD, mainly the Stinger or the Soviets counterpart? Secondly, wasnt TWA 800 operating normally according to the recovered FDRs above 13000 before it blew up? It seems pretty far fetched that a MANPAD brought down TWA 800 at that altitude, maybe some military guys would know for sure, but as far as a cover-up goes, i find it a little hard to believe that this is what happened.

 

[avbug]

Stinger, no. Mistral or Vangaurd (chinese), yes.

Most of these weapons are intended to take out a single heat source; remove the engine from the airplane or helicopter, or disable it. They are not intended to destroy the target. This isn't true of all the weapons that may be potentially used, however.

It's also equally true that a small source can trigger a larger source, and a small weapon on a forward aspect shot may pick up an alternate heat source, such as a bleed vent from a heat exchanger, adjacent to a fuel cell (or other sensitive point).

Regardless of the size of the primary explosion, it's a given that any explosion on or about your airplane is not a good thing.

Prior to the last time around, solid intelligence provided that weapons were entering the country, from Iraq. The intelligence community was aware of the threat. However, it wasn't the same threat that was used, and its' unclear weather or not the existing threat was properly addressed or recognized...until the event itself.

Most MANPADS are not sufficient to take down an airplane based soley on the primary explosion, unless the user becomes exceptionaly lucky.

 

[JimNtexas]

Fox News had pictures of the launcher that was found. It looked like an SA-7 to me (but I haven't studied war for almost 10 years, so I may be mistaken).

The weird thing was that the tube and handgrip were painted blue, which usually means a training round.

Edited to add:

Here is a picture of one of the two launchers that were found in Kenya:

I'll bet a dollar that the Israeli airliner had some kind of IR countermeasures.

 

[Timebuilder]

Much of the effectiveness has to do with where the target is relative to your position, and its direction of travel, along with its signature. Properly targeted and fired, these are surprisingly effective weapons.

These missiles should not be under-estimated.

 

[EagleRJ]

First question. What is the engagement envelope for an effective MANPAD, mainly the Stinger or the Soviets counterpart? Secondly, wasnt TWA 800 operating normally according to the recovered FDRs above 13000 before it blew up? It seems pretty far fetched that a MANPAD brought down TWA 800 at that altitude, maybe some military guys would know for sure, but as far as a cover-up goes, i find it a little hard to believe that this is what happened.

I think the military advertises a maximum engagement altitude of around 10,000', but keep in mind that's for a small, fast target like a fighter that may be making evasive maneouvers or deploying countermeasures. The missile will be going more than Mach 2 when the motor burns out, so it will still have the energy to maneouver and coast much higher than 10,000'.

The pilot of the Israeli airliner said he saw two smoke trails go up past the aircraft, but he also said he felt a bump and felt a bang or rattle like something hit the airplane. It's not clear if both missiles were a clean miss, or if one exploded well under the plane and shrapnel hit the belly. One of the news channels showed a camera shot panning down the length of the belly, and there wasn't any obvious damage or punctures.

Let's keep our eyes open and be careful up there, boys and girls!

 

[dtoften]

My understanding of these SA units are that the life expectancy of the seeker in 10 years max. So, the old SA-7 and Afghan's X-mas gift Stingers need seekers with new liquid nitrogen. Since US isn't giving out stingers anymore, fanatics need new seekers from Russian (or China) and they will probably buy new SA-18 instead of new seekers. My question is how much damage could they do to a Boeing aircraft? Engine is somewhat isolated compared to fighters. I imagine US has done a study somewhere and they are not talking, yet?

 

[Flightjock30]

One certainly brought down TWA flight 800! Except that was a Navy missile.

 

[dispatchguy]

If ya wanna update yourself on the most latest open source intel, on OPFOR missiles, check out the Federation of American Scientists

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/index.html

 

[Passingbye]

Airport security

I'm not a regular member and I probably won't be back but here's my 2 cents concerning the issue: when I heard about the attack against El-Al, I almost fell out of my chair. Here's the reason why. During the summer of 2000, I was at LAX with a friend. Driving around the airport, I noticed how areas were so "open". For example there is a street, I won't name it and besides it's blocked now after the 9-11 incident, that took you right to the hub where AA and Hawaiin parked their planes. I mean there was only a sidewalk and a five foot chain link fence separating planes with opened doors and step ladders, whatever they're called from the streets. We could get so close to the planes that I could tell you the color of the interior. There were no security guards, no one. My friend and I were like, what the hell is this? Why isn't this area secure? This prompted an evening long conversation about airport/airline security security. After eating dinner at Encounter, we drove towards the beach Dockweiler (sp) and took a street call ********* (this stret is now blocked off as well). What made this mentionable is that ********* is a quick shortcut taking you from the airport directly to the shoreline. Upon ascending ********'s steep slope, we had a clear view of the west face of the runway. Just park your car and you can see every plane taking off or landing. Again, there was no security, no city police, not even another car drove by for at least 10 minutes. We sat there and talked about how if we were terrorist it would be so easy to take a surface to air missile and target a plane while taking off. At Lax, the crafts are still quite low above the shoreline while taking off. It is now sacry to think that a conversation a had with a friend 2 years ago can now be a reality. I have some good news. Recently, I've been to Lax and I see more police cruisers and many streets have been blocked off but it was such a shock to see how "loose" security was back then. Man, just to think of it. I probably won't return to this board because I don't wish to be subjected to personal attacks. I'm just a passerbye sharing a story with the airline communtiy. That's all. Nothing more and nothing less. For years I have wanted to be in the industry and was even offered employment in early 2001 with SWA but at this time I don't think I am ready. I hope one day the tide will turn and maybe I can pursue my dream but until then I wish all your days may be safe. Best wishes.

 

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

In regards to a comment on the Israeli aircraft having some sort of protective measures.
I remember reading somewhere, within the last couple of days, that while the Israeli military will not comment on it, "certain" measures were in use...Whether it was flares or disco-balls, I dont know...but why is the US so slow to catch up? Seems like Part 121ers are a fair catch to these guys...

 

[Tim47SIP]

ceo_of_the_sofa

but why is the US so slow to catch up? Seems like Part 121ers are a fair catch to these guys...

It's called Money!

 

[enigma]

I know absolutely nothing about military weapons, so I'll leave that discussion to those that do. I do think that the possibility of small military missles being used against civil aircraft should scare the heck out of the TSA. Hopefully, someone in government will wise up and start making a concerted effort to: 1, close our borders and, 2. remove any and all potentiol terrorist. Drastic times require drastic measures. Sooner or later, we must accept that some people cause trouble, and remove them from this free society. The problem is that the modern mindset says that you don't blame people, you blame the object they used to commit the crime. I wonder what happens now, will the government call for more drastic stinger control? Maybe the call will be for an anti-stinger defense system located above the control tower at each airport. Wouldn't the military industrial complex love that? Image the money the government would spend on that system. I offer that it would be easier to remove the people who have shown a propensity to destroy us.

We should take those 35000 TSA newbies and turn them into INS agents. (also, get the ACLU types out of the INS) Let those agents track down all of the people who fit the terrorist PROFILE, and then kick them out.

Actually its sort of amusing, the big government answer is usually to control the object, I do wonder how they will attempt to demonize the stinger .
I can see it now, "Stinger Control, Inc. has announced today that it opposes the ultra right wing National Stinger Association. SCI founder, Scara Grady said that there is no sporting use for stingers and wants all Americans to call their congressperson and demand that she support the new SCI initiative, Save Our Kids From Stingers. In a related story, SCI and NagGang activist, Nosie ODonnel defended her personal bodyguard, Ms. Helen Degenerate, who reportedly carries a stinger for Ms ODonnels personal safety. Ms. ODonnel stated, "I'm different, I need to be treated special because I'm popular. I can be trusted with a stinger, it's just the huddled masses that are a threat."

Man, am I bored

 

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

whether we close our borders or not...there's probably enough sleeper cells here anyway...just visit your local Seven Eleven (and, yes, I know I am generalizing)

either way, with the way things are going, we're allready fawked...

 

[enigma]

whether we close our borders or not...there's probably enough sleeper cells here anyway...just visit your local Seven Eleven (and, yes, I know I am generalizing)

Agreed, that's why I said to get the ACLU out of the INS and remove all of the potential terrorist.

8N