The ACA hypocrisy

[Club ORD FO]

Actually Datafox that was a nice post..... TO POOP ON!

ACA RJ FO

I just saw that dog for the first time....

 

[goflyme]

Data fox is Correct!

You guys at ACA are screwing everyone at SWA, JBLUE, ATA, Airtran, and Frontier.

ACA is the MESA of LCC's

 

[kirk]

Back up the flamebaiting bs, gfm

 

[Cappy]

Data fox is Correct!

You guys at ACA are screwing everyone at SWA, JBLUE, ATA, Airtran, and Frontier.

ACA is the MESA of LCC's

Given the fact that ACA's work rules and pay are higher than three of the five airlines stated above, please explain to the readers how ACA is the MESA of LCC's(?).

Please back up your statement with facts.

 

[GogglesPisano]

GoBlowMe!

 

[Captain X]

I will say this again:

Mesa, in their "revolutionary, non-concessionary" contract DID NOT EVEN BREAK INDUSTRY AVERAGE!!!

ACA, even with concessions, STAYS ABOVE INDUSTRY AVERAGE.

 

[kirk]

I can't slam the MESA pilots. They paid dearly for key scope provisions to protect and build for a future. Yes, the worst pay and work rules in existance in this country, but they are fighting the modern day Lorenzo. If my nightmare were to actually come to pass that scope they bought would be gold (plate) to me.

 

[supsup]

What's this, is someone other than Mesa getting bashed? Is this flightinfo.com? I must be trippin. I can always count on the regional forum for a good laugh, which reminds me SNL is on tonight gotta go. Keep up the bashing and flaming guys.

supsup

 

[Sniper@YourFeet]

Our NBrates are HIGHER than Frontier, AWA, and Airtran.

And Mesa's rates are HIGHER than 3 other carriers too, I'm sure.

Aren't there some other airlines who fly NB's (say American, Aloha, Alaska, jetBlue, Continental, Delta, Northwest, Spirit, Hawaiian, ATA, United, US Air, and Southwest)? How does the ACA contract compare to them?

Let's just keep everything in perspective here, guys. If we're throwing around terms like 'industry average', let's make sure we're playing with a full deck.

 

[w4mch]

One correction, and several observations here:
ACA's new NB rate is NOT higher than AirTran's. It is higher than jetBlue's base rate, Frontier, America West and way above Spirit. It is way below Southwest & ATA, but not much below UAL & AA!

With tough negotiations, Mesa bid for our company and first NB size plane on our contract I feel that we did quite well. It would have been better if JO hadn't placed a bid on us. Thanks Mesa!

Don't forget 401K $$. As a senior NB Capt, I put in 6%, the company matches with 6% AND, depending on operating profit margin, I can expect from $4000 to over $20,000 bonus into my 401K every year. True, it could be zero bonus if the profit margin is below 4.2%, but the 6% match is always there. What is the 401K at jetBlue? I read that Mesa's 401K match is 1%. Is this true?

If you graph out rates for all LCC carriers, we are solidly in the game, with SW and ATA well above the curve. As long as they don't put a silly name on it or make me wear the purple dinasaur suit, I will hold my head high as I walk down the jetway.

'Nuff said, have a nice day...

BTW sniper, I like your weapon, but with a big gun like that I hope you qualified at better than "marksman". I qualified as expert with an M1 Garrand national match, at 600 yards, open sights, sitting & prone. Alas, that was years ago before the tri-focals. You wouldn't want to be forward of my muzzle line these days!

 

[exphojump]

This industry is feast or famine,

One one hand a short 9 CA is making close to 200K at NWAC with pension and the highest paid CMR CA is making just over 100k. The majors failed to take advantage of scope and fly all aircraft operated by their carriers. ACAI if successful we will have the opportunity to do this.

We will have the second highest rates on 50 seat RJs and with profit sharing possibly the highest. Our NB rates are in middle of the pack among the LCCs, once again with profit sharing the potential is much higher. The rates for NB will be at year 5 for all pilots on property by 2007 when the contract is open for section 6 so the top rate at year 12 is of less importance at this time.

It is a compromise with the RJ rates on the high side and NB rates slightly lower than average. As to the J41 FOs and FRJ FOs that are taking a 3% cut and make under 30K a year. By all estimations the aircraft will not be on property by the end of 2004. If by chance the FRJs are still here the CRJ FO pay protection is still valid.

Say what you will, but these are reasonable wages for a start up LCC and if we are successful they will be higher.

Just hope mesa doesn't acquire us. They will lower the industry average for Eagle, Airwhisky, and the other regionals. With our cash they will be able to finance more CRJ700/900s to undercut AWA pilots and CRJ700s to undercut USair pilots.

 

[transienttorque]

Mesa pilots are saying that they will suck hind teat just to work at the same job someone else is already doing for the same company.

This Mesa pilot says you, Caveman, and J.O. can suck me until my ears flap. Don't blame the line pilots for management's poor decisions and judgement.

 

[kirk]

Transient Torque,

There are a lot of perspectives and most have a basis that's real. That said, I know that the quality of the contract does not describe the quality of the pilot group. Be unified and educate your pilot group - that, is the best thing all of us can do.

Can I borrow that ear flapping phrase?

 

[RogerOver]

One correction, and several observations here:
ACA's new NB rate is...higher than jetBlue's base rate

Doesn't jetBlue pay time-and-half above 70 hours? Is anyone taking this into consideration? What about all of the stock you get at JB when you're a new hire? That's got to be worth quite a bit. As far as I'm concerned, ACA came in WAY below JB when this is factored in.

And I'm sorry, but I'm getting a little tired of comparing ACA's CRJ rates to, well...ANYONE'S! This is an apples to oranges comparison. ACA will be operating under a LCC business plan. Who else is operating 50 seaters under a LCC business plan? This is entirely different from the regional feed business plan under which ALL other CRJ's operate. Not to mention that most of those operate under a fixed fee-per-departure structure, which essentially caps an airlines earnings. ACA will have virtually no limit on their earnings potential. Use Tom Moore's own numbers...70% load factor at $149 average one-way fare. That's $5215 per departure, not including load factors higher than 70% or revenue from mail or other small cargo. Doesn't ACA currently make approximately $3000 per departure? I realize there is increased overhead and expenditure when operating as a stand-alone, but TM said this will be minimal...mostly advertising. Online ticket sales will be handled via a third party and will be very inexpensive. So why should an ACA pilot earn less than a Comair pilot to fly the CRJ? That's like saying a cop should make the same money as a taxi driver because they both drive a Chevy Caprice. Is that a fair comparison? Tell me what SWA or JB would pay their pilots if they had a 50 seat pay rate. I doubt it would be less than Comair.

What about the loss of conflict pay? This could impact your pay SIGNIFICANTLY. I didn't happen to see anyone here mention that ALL NB CA's will start on the year 2 wage either. This means the most senior pilot in the company and the most junior pilot in the company are making the same wage in the left seat of the NB. How does that compare to SWA and JB?

My point is this...I hope ACA is successful as a stand alone. But I think the comparisons aren't fair. It's not about what Comair gets paid. Comair might as well be a cosmetics company. It's a different business plan and in my opinion, not relevant. And what about the fact that JB gets paid time-and-a-half above 70 hours (plus the stock they get)? And the year 2 payrate for all NB CA's? And the fact that the work rule changes (conflict pay) will significantly reduce your take home pay? I really don't see how this TA in on par with JB or SWA.

RogerOver

 

[FLB717]

ACA NB rates are less that JBLU and FRNT and SWA. SWA by a long shot. The numbers I gave are wrong in pay, add 13% because it is 320/737-800 we are comparing. That tops us at 172 on this contract when a 738 shows up. ACA NB rates dont compare. A CMR 70 Capt will top at 120 tp ACA 139 fro twice the aircraft. I wish you all well but truthfully Im scared for you, a lot.