The ACA hypocrisy

[datafox]

Here at ACA it looks like our "concessionary/LCC agreement" will be passed later today. It lowers the pay of turbo-prop and RJ guys by 3% while giving raises to those senior pilots who will possibily be flying the narrow-body aircraft. The narrow-body aircraft pilots will get the standard LCC pay without the benefits (days off, retirement, etc.) of other LCC's.

Here is the catch. A few months ago when Mesa signed their new contract in an effort to continue to grow, ACA pilots were really pissed. Most of them despise Mesa, and thought Mesa pilots were lowering the bar of the RJ industry, which to some extent they did, if you look at the concessionary agreements and TAs that have taken place since Mesa signed their contract.

Mesa's motive seemed to be this is the best we are going to get and it is better to grow and get out of here than fight for more.

At the time, I was pissed at Mesa too, but now is seems my bretherin are doing the exact same thing at ACA. The main point of this TA is growth, "hey, you RJ guys, take it up the butt so we can grow".

But, why aren't ACA pilots critical of this? The tables turn quickly when your job is in jeopardy.

ACA = MESA ??? possibly ??? or worse ???

At least Mesa made gains in their contract while getting little help from ALPA National. Meanwhile, ACA pilots who are critical of MESA, are voluntarily lowering their pay, and in the meantime possibly bringing down the LCC industry and contracts.

What ACA pilots do is up to us collectively. I'm not here to debate, and if we think concessions are necessary, then we should take them. However, the next time an ACA pilot complains about a Mesa whore they should take a look in the mirror.

 

[Cappy]

Here at ACA it looks like our "concessionary/LCC agreement" will be passed later today. It lowers the pay of turbo-prop and RJ guys by 3% while giving raises to those senior pilots who will possibily be flying the narrow-body aircraft. The narrow-body aircraft pilots will get the standard LCC pay without the benefits (days off, retirement, etc.) of other LCC's.


Here is the catch. A few months ago when Mesa signed their new contract in an effort to continue to grow, ACA pilots were really pissed. Most of them despise Mesa, and thought Mesa pilots were lowering the bar of the RJ industry, which to some extent they did, if you look at the concessionary agreements and TAs that have taken place since Mesa signed their contract.

Mesa's motive seemed to be this is the best we are going to get and it is better to grow and get out of here than fight for more.

At the time, I was pissed at Mesa too, but now is seems my bretherin are doing the exact same thing at ACA. The main point of this TA is growth, "hey, you RJ guys, take it up the butt so we can grow".

But, why aren't ACA pilots critical of this? The tables turn quickly when your job is in jeopardy.

ACA = MESA ??? possibly ??? or worse ???

At least Mesa made gains in their contract while getting little help from ALPA National. Meanwhile, ACA pilots who are critical of MESA, are voluntarily lowering their pay, and in the meantime possibly bringing down the LCC industry and contracts.

What ACA pilots do is up to us collectively. I'm not here to debate, and if we think concessions are necessary, then we should take them. However, the next time an ACA pilot complains about a Mesa whore they should take a look in the mirror.

Clearly, you did not take the time to read the TA nor attend a road show, so let me give you some quick facts:

1. With a 3% pay cut beginning on the FIRST REVENUE FLIGHT of the LCC, everyone suffers a little. ALL PILOTS, senior RJ CA's included, take a 3% cut.

2. Despite the pay reduction, ACA is still # 2 behind Comair. How can you compare us to MESA?

3. Our NBrates are HIGHER than Frontier, AWA, and Airtran. Are they whores?

4. MESA is unique as their pilots took concessions that were not only very deep but unnecessary at the time.


You complain and whine like a baby about "giving raises to those senior pilots who will possibily be flying the narrow-body aircraft." Am I to believe that as I, or you, have the seniority to hold a larger aircraft that it is somehow WRONG to get a pay raise? Did you not understand seniority when getting into this business? If not, I'm sure someone on this board will explain it to you.

Our profit sharing plan is excellent and allows you to take out in cash or keep in you 401K where it is deposited. Pension plans are dead as we know it. There is no protection from a loss of pension, just ask the USAir and Eastern pilots.

All you have to do is look at the pay charts provided by the NC to figure this all out. Your comments comparing ACA to MESA are unfounded and unwarranted.

If you want to work for MESA, please apply by yourself and not take the rest of us with you.

 

[ChinaClipper]

What in the heII?

Mesa took no "concessions" just every part of the contract went up, just not very much. Those ACA "senior Captains that will benefit" are made up of guys that PAID FOR THEIR GO D DAM NED JOBS! Are you $hitting me? These pedophiles telling ANYONE including Mesa , that they are not up to Par? Chri$t Almightly, I am gonna Pi$$ myself dry from laughing! Hey com to ACA, only 10,500 to be an FO! Another 200 to live on during training and you can be a real ariline type pilot complete with snazzy hat! OHHHH where do I sign? #2 Behind ComicalAir? You mean the place that charged about the same amount? 11K for FO , Another 11K for Captain, NO THANKS! Kepp you " I am a profesional" BS to yourself! Thius is your leadership? Geez, do they charge you to attend Union meetings too?

 

[DDpaysoff]

Come on. ACAI is in a hostile takeover bid. The pilots are protecting their best interests they get a raise to fly the same equipment if they are taken over they take a cut if they survive takeover and become their own lcc. ACAI mgmt and pilots are working together to avoid takeover and protecting the interests of their company collectively. There is no comparison to people who voluntarily accept contracts that keep them in the gutter bit- ching about everybody else who gets paid higher than them. I wish ACAI luck.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Better to work for a middle-of the ground LCC than a bottom of the barrel regional like Mesa. I think the choice is simple for most of the pilots at ACA (as will be demonstrated by the vote results.) Be assured, Datafox, you speak for an extremely narrrow minority (probably a half dozen FO's who you've had a bitch fest with in the crew lounge.) If everyone takes a 3% cut, why shouldn't you?

I'll ask you one question, and answer honestly to yourself: Do you think you'd take more than a 3% cut if we all wind up at Mesa? How about the 8 days off on reserve. Sounds great, right?

 

[acaTerry]

First, let me make it clear that I was NOT a PFT-er.
So let me ask you, Mr. Self Righteous, who at the time, was NOT a PFT airline?
I recall Mesa was not, but for that whopping $8.50 an hour, you might as well have been PFT.
Third, the "gains" that you champion were losses in disguise. As it has been explained to me by Mesa guys....the pay raise came with a reduction in guarantee. You LOST days off by not only number, but by definition. "Gee, I finish at 1200 today and show for work at 1300 tomorrow. Now what am I going to do with my day off?"
Don't even start/try to bring your airline to an equal level with ACA.

 

[AirBoard]

datafox,

Please for the luv of God take time to educate yourself wrt to the TA.

1. You can't compare our rates to other regionals because after this gets going WE WONT BE A REGIONAL

2. Across the board everyone is taking a pay increase. Think about it for 1 minute. CRJ CA to NB CA, lower CRJ/FRJ/J41 CA to NB FO, CRJ/FRJ/J41 FO to CRJ CA. Yes a few low FO maybe stuck in their equipment at FO rates for awhile but at least you'll have something else to go to eventually.

3. If you like we can re afirm our contract with United and take a 7.5 paycut. Perhaps that better suits you..?!?!

4. I NEVER vote YES for these agreements but with this one I'm fully on board. First time ever.

 

[treetopflyer]

whats a matter datafox? when you were at riddle did they tell you to just do a internship at aca and you would be at united making 500k a year by now... real life sucks dont it? if you are still here there is no excuse for you to be in the 41 still. if you didn't want to be. so stop yer bitchin..

 

[Caveman]

There is a big difference between an independent company striking out on their own to compete for business and a pilot group voting for a subpar contract in order to allow their company to outbid an affiliated company. ACA pilots are saying that they will make some adjustments so their fledgling LCC can make a go at becoming the next JB. Mesa pilots are saying that they will suck hind teat just to work at the same job someone else is already doing for the same company.

 

[FLB717]

ACA LCC rates in the NB are to be better than Frnt and AirTran. Ok good for you and me in Contract 05 but throw me a bone and publish those NB numbers AAI's are off the cuff but realistic.

AAI
NB
YR 3 Capt 101, FO 58
YR 12 Capt 152

LNB (A320/B737-800)
YR 5 Capt 140, FO (?)80
YR 12 Capt 172, FO (?)110

 

[DrewBlows]

Re: What in the heII?

Mesa took no "concessions" just every part of the contract went up, just not very much. Those ACA "senior Captains that will benefit" are made up of guys that PAID FOR THEIR GO D DAM NED JOBS! Are you $hitting me? These pedophiles telling ANYONE including Mesa , that they are not up to Par? Chri$t Almightly, I am gonna Pi$$ myself dry from laughing! Hey com to ACA, only 10,500 to be an FO! Another 200 to live on during training and you can be a real ariline type pilot complete with snazzy hat! OHHHH where do I sign? #2 Behind ComicalAir? You mean the place that charged about the same amount? 11K for FO , Another 11K for Captain, NO THANKS! Kepp you " I am a profesional" BS to yourself! Thius is your leadership? Geez, do they charge you to attend Union meetings too?

Did you use a random word generator to write this?

 

[j41driver]

ACA LCC rates in the NB are to be better than Frnt and AirTran. Ok good for you and me in Contract 05 but throw me a bone and publish those NB numbers AAI's are off the cuff but realistic.

AAI
NB
YR 3 Capt 101, FO 58
YR 12 Capt 152

LNB (A320/B737-800)
YR 5 Capt 140, FO (?)80
YR 12 Capt 172, FO (?)110

Here's the ACA TA rates for NB's(B737-700/800 or A319/320/321):


Effective upon the first revenue flight of LCC:

3 yr - CA $118.08 / FO $60.85
5 yr - CA $123.37 / FO $68.70
12 yr - CA $131.71 / FO $74.09 (10 yr max for FO's)

Effective 8/1/07:

3 yr - CA $125.31 / FO $67.04
5 yr - CA $130.92 / FO $78.55
12 yr - CA $139.77 / FO $82.31 (10 yr max)

 

[Club ORD FO]

datafox -

It bothers me that a pilot at my own airline is so uneducated about the TA. It is obvious you never went to a roadshow or bothered to ask questions. Only the senior pilots get raises for moving to new aircraft?...hmmm... You are on the 41 right? Those are history when Goldilocks starts so I guess you will move up. The FRJ guys?? Well...those are on their way out too due to the Delta pilot's scope language.

We are taking a small cut as a group. In exchange for that we get a good profit sharing plan. In the long run, we may end up getting more money.

The cut doesn't go into effect until Goldilocks starts, so if that happens we defeated Mesa. 3% is better than Mesa wages. We had to do something to help the company stop the takeover.

Your uneducated vote does not help. I'd have more respect if you voted no for a reason.

ACA RJ FO

 

[Carl_Everett]

datafox -

It bothers me that a pilot at my own airline is so uneducated about the TA. It is obvious you never went to a roadshow or bothered to ask questions. Only the senior pilots get raises for moving to new aircraft?...hmmm... You are on the 41 right? Those are history when Goldilocks starts so I guess you will move up. The FRJ guys?? Well...those are on their way out too due to the Delta pilot's scope language.

We are taking a small cut as a group. In exchange for that we get a good profit sharing plan. In the long run, we may end up getting more money.

The cut doesn't go into effect until Goldilocks starts, so if that happens we defeated Mesa. 3% is better than Mesa wages. We had to do something to help the company stop the takeover.

Your uneducated vote does not help. I'd have more respect if you voted no for a reason.

ACA RJ FO

Plus you will still get your longevity step increases unless you bid the NB. So in reality you are taking a pay freeze. I don't think that is too much to ask to try to make ACA independant.

 

[kirk]

Datafax:

I really resent that you work for my airline (as you profess).

I resent that I have to associate with the likes of you in my professional organization.

I want to puke all over your public condemnation of the vast majority of your very own hard working coworkers and representatives.

Your clear disgust with your own pilot group reveals an abysmal understanding of the importance and value of unity. You can disagree with your groups general concensus and still be as valuable member as any other, but you have no value as a member of any pilot group with such a pitiful willingness to crap all over hundreds of your own.

You have no clue - so stuff it, fix it, or take it someplace else.

 

[Club ORD FO]

Actually Datafox that was a nice post..... TO POOP ON!

ACA RJ FO

I just saw that dog for the first time....

 

[goflyme]

Data fox is Correct!

You guys at ACA are screwing everyone at SWA, JBLUE, ATA, Airtran, and Frontier.

ACA is the MESA of LCC's

 

[kirk]

Back up the flamebaiting bs, gfm

 

[Cappy]

Data fox is Correct!

You guys at ACA are screwing everyone at SWA, JBLUE, ATA, Airtran, and Frontier.

ACA is the MESA of LCC's

Given the fact that ACA's work rules and pay are higher than three of the five airlines stated above, please explain to the readers how ACA is the MESA of LCC's(?).

Please back up your statement with facts.

 

[GogglesPisano]

GoBlowMe!

 

[Captain X]

I will say this again:

Mesa, in their "revolutionary, non-concessionary" contract DID NOT EVEN BREAK INDUSTRY AVERAGE!!!

ACA, even with concessions, STAYS ABOVE INDUSTRY AVERAGE.

 

[kirk]

I can't slam the MESA pilots. They paid dearly for key scope provisions to protect and build for a future. Yes, the worst pay and work rules in existance in this country, but they are fighting the modern day Lorenzo. If my nightmare were to actually come to pass that scope they bought would be gold (plate) to me.

 

[supsup]

What's this, is someone other than Mesa getting bashed? Is this flightinfo.com? I must be trippin. I can always count on the regional forum for a good laugh, which reminds me SNL is on tonight gotta go. Keep up the bashing and flaming guys.

supsup

 

[Sniper@YourFeet]

Our NBrates are HIGHER than Frontier, AWA, and Airtran.

And Mesa's rates are HIGHER than 3 other carriers too, I'm sure.

Aren't there some other airlines who fly NB's (say American, Aloha, Alaska, jetBlue, Continental, Delta, Northwest, Spirit, Hawaiian, ATA, United, US Air, and Southwest)? How does the ACA contract compare to them?

Let's just keep everything in perspective here, guys. If we're throwing around terms like 'industry average', let's make sure we're playing with a full deck.

 

[w4mch]

One correction, and several observations here:
ACA's new NB rate is NOT higher than AirTran's. It is higher than jetBlue's base rate, Frontier, America West and way above Spirit. It is way below Southwest & ATA, but not much below UAL & AA!

With tough negotiations, Mesa bid for our company and first NB size plane on our contract I feel that we did quite well. It would have been better if JO hadn't placed a bid on us. Thanks Mesa!

Don't forget 401K $$. As a senior NB Capt, I put in 6%, the company matches with 6% AND, depending on operating profit margin, I can expect from $4000 to over $20,000 bonus into my 401K every year. True, it could be zero bonus if the profit margin is below 4.2%, but the 6% match is always there. What is the 401K at jetBlue? I read that Mesa's 401K match is 1%. Is this true?

If you graph out rates for all LCC carriers, we are solidly in the game, with SW and ATA well above the curve. As long as they don't put a silly name on it or make me wear the purple dinasaur suit, I will hold my head high as I walk down the jetway.

'Nuff said, have a nice day...

BTW sniper, I like your weapon, but with a big gun like that I hope you qualified at better than "marksman". I qualified as expert with an M1 Garrand national match, at 600 yards, open sights, sitting & prone. Alas, that was years ago before the tri-focals. You wouldn't want to be forward of my muzzle line these days!

 

[exphojump]

This industry is feast or famine,

One one hand a short 9 CA is making close to 200K at NWAC with pension and the highest paid CMR CA is making just over 100k. The majors failed to take advantage of scope and fly all aircraft operated by their carriers. ACAI if successful we will have the opportunity to do this.

We will have the second highest rates on 50 seat RJs and with profit sharing possibly the highest. Our NB rates are in middle of the pack among the LCCs, once again with profit sharing the potential is much higher. The rates for NB will be at year 5 for all pilots on property by 2007 when the contract is open for section 6 so the top rate at year 12 is of less importance at this time.

It is a compromise with the RJ rates on the high side and NB rates slightly lower than average. As to the J41 FOs and FRJ FOs that are taking a 3% cut and make under 30K a year. By all estimations the aircraft will not be on property by the end of 2004. If by chance the FRJs are still here the CRJ FO pay protection is still valid.

Say what you will, but these are reasonable wages for a start up LCC and if we are successful they will be higher.

Just hope mesa doesn't acquire us. They will lower the industry average for Eagle, Airwhisky, and the other regionals. With our cash they will be able to finance more CRJ700/900s to undercut AWA pilots and CRJ700s to undercut USair pilots.

 

[transienttorque]

Mesa pilots are saying that they will suck hind teat just to work at the same job someone else is already doing for the same company.

This Mesa pilot says you, Caveman, and J.O. can suck me until my ears flap. Don't blame the line pilots for management's poor decisions and judgement.

 

[kirk]

Transient Torque,

There are a lot of perspectives and most have a basis that's real. That said, I know that the quality of the contract does not describe the quality of the pilot group. Be unified and educate your pilot group - that, is the best thing all of us can do.

Can I borrow that ear flapping phrase?

 

[RogerOver]

One correction, and several observations here:
ACA's new NB rate is...higher than jetBlue's base rate

Doesn't jetBlue pay time-and-half above 70 hours? Is anyone taking this into consideration? What about all of the stock you get at JB when you're a new hire? That's got to be worth quite a bit. As far as I'm concerned, ACA came in WAY below JB when this is factored in.

And I'm sorry, but I'm getting a little tired of comparing ACA's CRJ rates to, well...ANYONE'S! This is an apples to oranges comparison. ACA will be operating under a LCC business plan. Who else is operating 50 seaters under a LCC business plan? This is entirely different from the regional feed business plan under which ALL other CRJ's operate. Not to mention that most of those operate under a fixed fee-per-departure structure, which essentially caps an airlines earnings. ACA will have virtually no limit on their earnings potential. Use Tom Moore's own numbers...70% load factor at $149 average one-way fare. That's $5215 per departure, not including load factors higher than 70% or revenue from mail or other small cargo. Doesn't ACA currently make approximately $3000 per departure? I realize there is increased overhead and expenditure when operating as a stand-alone, but TM said this will be minimal...mostly advertising. Online ticket sales will be handled via a third party and will be very inexpensive. So why should an ACA pilot earn less than a Comair pilot to fly the CRJ? That's like saying a cop should make the same money as a taxi driver because they both drive a Chevy Caprice. Is that a fair comparison? Tell me what SWA or JB would pay their pilots if they had a 50 seat pay rate. I doubt it would be less than Comair.

What about the loss of conflict pay? This could impact your pay SIGNIFICANTLY. I didn't happen to see anyone here mention that ALL NB CA's will start on the year 2 wage either. This means the most senior pilot in the company and the most junior pilot in the company are making the same wage in the left seat of the NB. How does that compare to SWA and JB?

My point is this...I hope ACA is successful as a stand alone. But I think the comparisons aren't fair. It's not about what Comair gets paid. Comair might as well be a cosmetics company. It's a different business plan and in my opinion, not relevant. And what about the fact that JB gets paid time-and-a-half above 70 hours (plus the stock they get)? And the year 2 payrate for all NB CA's? And the fact that the work rule changes (conflict pay) will significantly reduce your take home pay? I really don't see how this TA in on par with JB or SWA.

RogerOver

 

[FLB717]

ACA NB rates are less that JBLU and FRNT and SWA. SWA by a long shot. The numbers I gave are wrong in pay, add 13% because it is 320/737-800 we are comparing. That tops us at 172 on this contract when a 738 shows up. ACA NB rates dont compare. A CMR 70 Capt will top at 120 tp ACA 139 fro twice the aircraft. I wish you all well but truthfully Im scared for you, a lot.