The ACA hypocrisy

[datafox]

Here at ACA it looks like our "concessionary/LCC agreement" will be passed later today. It lowers the pay of turbo-prop and RJ guys by 3% while giving raises to those senior pilots who will possibily be flying the narrow-body aircraft. The narrow-body aircraft pilots will get the standard LCC pay without the benefits (days off, retirement, etc.) of other LCC's.

Here is the catch. A few months ago when Mesa signed their new contract in an effort to continue to grow, ACA pilots were really pissed. Most of them despise Mesa, and thought Mesa pilots were lowering the bar of the RJ industry, which to some extent they did, if you look at the concessionary agreements and TAs that have taken place since Mesa signed their contract.

Mesa's motive seemed to be this is the best we are going to get and it is better to grow and get out of here than fight for more.

At the time, I was pissed at Mesa too, but now is seems my bretherin are doing the exact same thing at ACA. The main point of this TA is growth, "hey, you RJ guys, take it up the butt so we can grow".

But, why aren't ACA pilots critical of this? The tables turn quickly when your job is in jeopardy.

ACA = MESA ??? possibly ??? or worse ???

At least Mesa made gains in their contract while getting little help from ALPA National. Meanwhile, ACA pilots who are critical of MESA, are voluntarily lowering their pay, and in the meantime possibly bringing down the LCC industry and contracts.

What ACA pilots do is up to us collectively. I'm not here to debate, and if we think concessions are necessary, then we should take them. However, the next time an ACA pilot complains about a Mesa whore they should take a look in the mirror.

 

[Cappy]

Here at ACA it looks like our "concessionary/LCC agreement" will be passed later today. It lowers the pay of turbo-prop and RJ guys by 3% while giving raises to those senior pilots who will possibily be flying the narrow-body aircraft. The narrow-body aircraft pilots will get the standard LCC pay without the benefits (days off, retirement, etc.) of other LCC's.


Here is the catch. A few months ago when Mesa signed their new contract in an effort to continue to grow, ACA pilots were really pissed. Most of them despise Mesa, and thought Mesa pilots were lowering the bar of the RJ industry, which to some extent they did, if you look at the concessionary agreements and TAs that have taken place since Mesa signed their contract.

Mesa's motive seemed to be this is the best we are going to get and it is better to grow and get out of here than fight for more.

At the time, I was pissed at Mesa too, but now is seems my bretherin are doing the exact same thing at ACA. The main point of this TA is growth, "hey, you RJ guys, take it up the butt so we can grow".

But, why aren't ACA pilots critical of this? The tables turn quickly when your job is in jeopardy.

ACA = MESA ??? possibly ??? or worse ???

At least Mesa made gains in their contract while getting little help from ALPA National. Meanwhile, ACA pilots who are critical of MESA, are voluntarily lowering their pay, and in the meantime possibly bringing down the LCC industry and contracts.

What ACA pilots do is up to us collectively. I'm not here to debate, and if we think concessions are necessary, then we should take them. However, the next time an ACA pilot complains about a Mesa whore they should take a look in the mirror.

Clearly, you did not take the time to read the TA nor attend a road show, so let me give you some quick facts:

1. With a 3% pay cut beginning on the FIRST REVENUE FLIGHT of the LCC, everyone suffers a little. ALL PILOTS, senior RJ CA's included, take a 3% cut.

2. Despite the pay reduction, ACA is still # 2 behind Comair. How can you compare us to MESA?

3. Our NBrates are HIGHER than Frontier, AWA, and Airtran. Are they whores?

4. MESA is unique as their pilots took concessions that were not only very deep but unnecessary at the time.


You complain and whine like a baby about "giving raises to those senior pilots who will possibily be flying the narrow-body aircraft." Am I to believe that as I, or you, have the seniority to hold a larger aircraft that it is somehow WRONG to get a pay raise? Did you not understand seniority when getting into this business? If not, I'm sure someone on this board will explain it to you.

Our profit sharing plan is excellent and allows you to take out in cash or keep in you 401K where it is deposited. Pension plans are dead as we know it. There is no protection from a loss of pension, just ask the USAir and Eastern pilots.

All you have to do is look at the pay charts provided by the NC to figure this all out. Your comments comparing ACA to MESA are unfounded and unwarranted.

If you want to work for MESA, please apply by yourself and not take the rest of us with you.

 

[ChinaClipper]

What in the heII?

Mesa took no "concessions" just every part of the contract went up, just not very much. Those ACA "senior Captains that will benefit" are made up of guys that PAID FOR THEIR GO D DAM NED JOBS! Are you $hitting me? These pedophiles telling ANYONE including Mesa , that they are not up to Par? Chri$t Almightly, I am gonna Pi$$ myself dry from laughing! Hey com to ACA, only 10,500 to be an FO! Another 200 to live on during training and you can be a real ariline type pilot complete with snazzy hat! OHHHH where do I sign? #2 Behind ComicalAir? You mean the place that charged about the same amount? 11K for FO , Another 11K for Captain, NO THANKS! Kepp you " I am a profesional" BS to yourself! Thius is your leadership? Geez, do they charge you to attend Union meetings too?

 

[DDpaysoff]

Come on. ACAI is in a hostile takeover bid. The pilots are protecting their best interests they get a raise to fly the same equipment if they are taken over they take a cut if they survive takeover and become their own lcc. ACAI mgmt and pilots are working together to avoid takeover and protecting the interests of their company collectively. There is no comparison to people who voluntarily accept contracts that keep them in the gutter bit- ching about everybody else who gets paid higher than them. I wish ACAI luck.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Better to work for a middle-of the ground LCC than a bottom of the barrel regional like Mesa. I think the choice is simple for most of the pilots at ACA (as will be demonstrated by the vote results.) Be assured, Datafox, you speak for an extremely narrrow minority (probably a half dozen FO's who you've had a bitch fest with in the crew lounge.) If everyone takes a 3% cut, why shouldn't you?

I'll ask you one question, and answer honestly to yourself: Do you think you'd take more than a 3% cut if we all wind up at Mesa? How about the 8 days off on reserve. Sounds great, right?

 

[acaTerry]

First, let me make it clear that I was NOT a PFT-er.
So let me ask you, Mr. Self Righteous, who at the time, was NOT a PFT airline?
I recall Mesa was not, but for that whopping $8.50 an hour, you might as well have been PFT.
Third, the "gains" that you champion were losses in disguise. As it has been explained to me by Mesa guys....the pay raise came with a reduction in guarantee. You LOST days off by not only number, but by definition. "Gee, I finish at 1200 today and show for work at 1300 tomorrow. Now what am I going to do with my day off?"
Don't even start/try to bring your airline to an equal level with ACA.

 

[AirBoard]

datafox,

Please for the luv of God take time to educate yourself wrt to the TA.

1. You can't compare our rates to other regionals because after this gets going WE WONT BE A REGIONAL

2. Across the board everyone is taking a pay increase. Think about it for 1 minute. CRJ CA to NB CA, lower CRJ/FRJ/J41 CA to NB FO, CRJ/FRJ/J41 FO to CRJ CA. Yes a few low FO maybe stuck in their equipment at FO rates for awhile but at least you'll have something else to go to eventually.

3. If you like we can re afirm our contract with United and take a 7.5 paycut. Perhaps that better suits you..?!?!

4. I NEVER vote YES for these agreements but with this one I'm fully on board. First time ever.

 

[treetopflyer]

whats a matter datafox? when you were at riddle did they tell you to just do a internship at aca and you would be at united making 500k a year by now... real life sucks dont it? if you are still here there is no excuse for you to be in the 41 still. if you didn't want to be. so stop yer bitchin..

 

[Caveman]

There is a big difference between an independent company striking out on their own to compete for business and a pilot group voting for a subpar contract in order to allow their company to outbid an affiliated company. ACA pilots are saying that they will make some adjustments so their fledgling LCC can make a go at becoming the next JB. Mesa pilots are saying that they will suck hind teat just to work at the same job someone else is already doing for the same company.

 

[FLB717]

ACA LCC rates in the NB are to be better than Frnt and AirTran. Ok good for you and me in Contract 05 but throw me a bone and publish those NB numbers AAI's are off the cuff but realistic.

AAI
NB
YR 3 Capt 101, FO 58
YR 12 Capt 152

LNB (A320/B737-800)
YR 5 Capt 140, FO (?)80
YR 12 Capt 172, FO (?)110

 

[DrewBlows]

Re: What in the heII?

Mesa took no "concessions" just every part of the contract went up, just not very much. Those ACA "senior Captains that will benefit" are made up of guys that PAID FOR THEIR GO D DAM NED JOBS! Are you $hitting me? These pedophiles telling ANYONE including Mesa , that they are not up to Par? Chri$t Almightly, I am gonna Pi$$ myself dry from laughing! Hey com to ACA, only 10,500 to be an FO! Another 200 to live on during training and you can be a real ariline type pilot complete with snazzy hat! OHHHH where do I sign? #2 Behind ComicalAir? You mean the place that charged about the same amount? 11K for FO , Another 11K for Captain, NO THANKS! Kepp you " I am a profesional" BS to yourself! Thius is your leadership? Geez, do they charge you to attend Union meetings too?

Did you use a random word generator to write this?

 

[j41driver]

ACA LCC rates in the NB are to be better than Frnt and AirTran. Ok good for you and me in Contract 05 but throw me a bone and publish those NB numbers AAI's are off the cuff but realistic.

AAI
NB
YR 3 Capt 101, FO 58
YR 12 Capt 152

LNB (A320/B737-800)
YR 5 Capt 140, FO (?)80
YR 12 Capt 172, FO (?)110

Here's the ACA TA rates for NB's(B737-700/800 or A319/320/321):


Effective upon the first revenue flight of LCC:

3 yr - CA $118.08 / FO $60.85
5 yr - CA $123.37 / FO $68.70
12 yr - CA $131.71 / FO $74.09 (10 yr max for FO's)

Effective 8/1/07:

3 yr - CA $125.31 / FO $67.04
5 yr - CA $130.92 / FO $78.55
12 yr - CA $139.77 / FO $82.31 (10 yr max)

 

[Club ORD FO]

datafox -

It bothers me that a pilot at my own airline is so uneducated about the TA. It is obvious you never went to a roadshow or bothered to ask questions. Only the senior pilots get raises for moving to new aircraft?...hmmm... You are on the 41 right? Those are history when Goldilocks starts so I guess you will move up. The FRJ guys?? Well...those are on their way out too due to the Delta pilot's scope language.

We are taking a small cut as a group. In exchange for that we get a good profit sharing plan. In the long run, we may end up getting more money.

The cut doesn't go into effect until Goldilocks starts, so if that happens we defeated Mesa. 3% is better than Mesa wages. We had to do something to help the company stop the takeover.

Your uneducated vote does not help. I'd have more respect if you voted no for a reason.

ACA RJ FO

 

[Carl_Everett]

datafox -

It bothers me that a pilot at my own airline is so uneducated about the TA. It is obvious you never went to a roadshow or bothered to ask questions. Only the senior pilots get raises for moving to new aircraft?...hmmm... You are on the 41 right? Those are history when Goldilocks starts so I guess you will move up. The FRJ guys?? Well...those are on their way out too due to the Delta pilot's scope language.

We are taking a small cut as a group. In exchange for that we get a good profit sharing plan. In the long run, we may end up getting more money.

The cut doesn't go into effect until Goldilocks starts, so if that happens we defeated Mesa. 3% is better than Mesa wages. We had to do something to help the company stop the takeover.

Your uneducated vote does not help. I'd have more respect if you voted no for a reason.

ACA RJ FO

Plus you will still get your longevity step increases unless you bid the NB. So in reality you are taking a pay freeze. I don't think that is too much to ask to try to make ACA independant.

 

[kirk]

Datafax:

I really resent that you work for my airline (as you profess).

I resent that I have to associate with the likes of you in my professional organization.

I want to puke all over your public condemnation of the vast majority of your very own hard working coworkers and representatives.

Your clear disgust with your own pilot group reveals an abysmal understanding of the importance and value of unity. You can disagree with your groups general concensus and still be as valuable member as any other, but you have no value as a member of any pilot group with such a pitiful willingness to crap all over hundreds of your own.

You have no clue - so stuff it, fix it, or take it someplace else.

 

[Club ORD FO]

Actually Datafox that was a nice post..... TO POOP ON!

ACA RJ FO

I just saw that dog for the first time....

 

[goflyme]

Data fox is Correct!

You guys at ACA are screwing everyone at SWA, JBLUE, ATA, Airtran, and Frontier.

ACA is the MESA of LCC's

 

[kirk]

Back up the flamebaiting bs, gfm

 

[Cappy]

Data fox is Correct!

You guys at ACA are screwing everyone at SWA, JBLUE, ATA, Airtran, and Frontier.

ACA is the MESA of LCC's

Given the fact that ACA's work rules and pay are higher than three of the five airlines stated above, please explain to the readers how ACA is the MESA of LCC's(?).

Please back up your statement with facts.

 

[GogglesPisano]

GoBlowMe!