The 100-Seat Regional

[ShyFlyGuy]

I'm sure you all have heard about CHQ buying Shuttle America. I was just down in FlightSafety in STL and there were two huge classes of ERJ-170 classes for Shuttle America. My question for the legacy carriers is, does this piss you off? These regional airlines are taking the A-319/20/21 mainline jobs/routes and paying the FO $22/hr for displacing a mainline pilot. What's the overall take on this style of management and is there anything that the unions are doing or can do about it?

Shy

Also interesting and related:
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=52878&page=1&pp=15

 

[Mmmmmm Burritos]

E-170's are typically 70 seats. Don't get too excited boss.

 

[TV9Driver]

The Emb170 and all regional jets for that matter are doing two things... They are taking away jobs from the major carriers, and they ensuring that fewer regional pilots will ever fly at a major and actually get paid a decent wage. The problem is, how do you tell a 21 year old CFI with 1,000 hours that it's bad for their career to take a job in the right seat of a brand new RJ for $22K a year. I know if someone would have told me that, I'd have told them to go ____ themselves....

Interestingly, the regional carriers are going through the same thing that the majors went through 6 -7 years ago. We "majors" complained about the RJ's coming in and taking our flights/jobs for less money. Now, the regionals are complaining about the Freedoms and GoJets coming in and undercutting their routes and pay rates. It looks like it's going to be a race to the bottom.

Good luck everyone.

 

[CitationLover]

why should they get excited? this is a natural evolution of this business.

first we had B scale wages then C scale and now the regionals, wholly owned, are simply D scale.

we are our own worst enemy.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Why does ALPA encourage airline management to operate alter ego air carriers? Why do we allow our union to negotiate these deals?

This E170 "revolution" is being done with Duane Woerth's signature at the bottom of every contract.

We truly are our own worst enemy.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Interestingly, the regional carriers are going through the same thing that the majors went through 6 -7 years ago. We "majors" complained about the RJ's coming in and taking our flights/jobs for less money. Now, the regionals are complaining about the Freedoms and GoJets coming in and undercutting their routes and pay rates. It looks like it's going to be a race to the bottom.

Welcome to alter ego whipsaw, debated at the 2000 Board of Director's meeting and signed into effect by ALPA's President.

Support the RJDC in trying to change the union's direction!

 

[~~~^~~~]

E-170's are typically 70 seats. Don't get too excited boss.

RJ's are typically 50 seats. Don't ignore the fact that these operators already have a perfectly good 70 seat airplane.

The E170 is an entry point for a fleet of larger derivitives. Besides, when everyone else has E190's do you want to be the operator of an airplane that has the same costs, but that produces 22 to 24% less revenue?

The answers are obvious.

Aside - Great screen name!

~~~^~~~

 

[cocknbull]

If I or any other regional pilot had the choice, we would be flying our rjs under a mainline certificate. However it is not my choice nor is it the choice of any 1000 hour cfis what jobs are available. It was decided long before we even started flying who would fly the rjs. The attitudes of some mainline pilot groups can be blamed for this. Many mainline pilot groups did not want lower wage jobs on their seniority list. It is completely ignorant and foolish to think that a new hire fo at a regional has anything to do with the state of the industry. Continue to blame who you want, but the two parties responsible for the state of the industry and our standard of living our MANAGEMENT and ALPA or APA.

Gojets is a result of a pilot group refusing to accept a crappy wage to fly rjs and APAs scope wich is not working and is counter productive to other pilot group's bargining power. At the end of the day Trans States will still be flying 66 seat airplanes for United, however the payrate and the quality of life will be lower due to APA's scope.

ALPA seems more inclined to change the age 60 rule than to adress the current real problems: Lower pay, Furloughs, Quality of Life, Regional expansion at low payrates, retirment and pension, etc..... Call them and Bitch and stand up for your own self worth.

 

[PCL_128]

Why does ALPA encourage airline management to operate alter ego air carriers? Why do we allow our union to negotiate these deals?

This E170 "revolution" is being done with Duane Woerth's signature at the bottom of every contract.

We truly are our own worst enemy.

ALPA doesn't "encourage" any such thing. ALPA has no more power to force a seniority merger than I do. The mainline managements are not going to allow a single seniority list. It's just that simple.

 

[stb]

Typically the 170's are 72 seats but...

E-170's are typically 70 seats. Don't get too excited boss.

there are the EMB 175, EMB 190 and EMB 195 coming soon. Where does it stop?

That is the same attitude by Delta pilots in 1990 that started this new pay scale by voting to let their regionals fly rjs. Those are only 50/80 seat jets, they are replacing turbo-props who cares who flies them.

PSA and Piedmont back in the late 80's early 90's were flying F-28's that were in the 70-80 seat range getting paid more than today's 70 seaters plus better QOL and insurance etc.

If you think the R-scale (regional airline pay scale) will stop at the 70 seat range of airplane's think again. Look at USA 2000 flying Airbus' and their QOL, must live in base, can be scheduled off for a day between trips or Independence yet no code share but still a regional airline flying Airbus'.

Then there is Mesa management trying to get their pilots to signoff on flying 737's.

Things can get worse.

 

[FlyChicaga]

This is like coming on here and asking, "Does it piss you off that your 22 year old neighbor is banging your wife while you are away on trips?"

Look at the JetBlue rates on the EMB-190. What is the incentive to get the 90-100 seaters at mainline if negotations for 90-seat rates will be that low? After all, they are a major airline. The problem right now isn't where the equipment goes; the problem is what the payscales for said equipment is at it's final resting place. Wherever it goes, whether it be mainline, regional, or new startup LCC, the payrates need to go up. Period.

In all honesty, do you really believe that if the EMB-190 went to mainline, they would be able to get well above the rates JetBlue is currently paying for the same equipment? After all, they are making money, and very likely the other company is not.

The perfect storm. This industry is like an NTSB accident. All the layers lining up for a total sh**storm.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

The problem is, how do you tell a 21 year old CFI with 1,000 hours that it's bad for their career to take a job in the right seat of a brand new RJ for $22K a year.

What would you propose to a 21 yr old CFI with 1000 hours? Keep instructing in cessnas and pipers until he can get on with a major flying a 737 for $35000 a year? There wil always be low paying, entry level jobs.

Believe it or not, one can make a decent living and retire well at a regional. Take USAIR for example. The most junior guy still flying there was hired around '88. Maybe berfore USAIR he flew at Comair, no wait, Pinnacle. Currently he is the most junior person on the property (ie next to go on furlough) makes $85 an hour, and gets the worst schedules. If he were still at Pinnacle (gasp) he would be in the top 10 easy. He would be making $82 an hour, and 18 days off a month and much more job security.

I'm planning on moving on from the regionals, but if I don't I will still be able to retire wealthy.

 

[T-REX]

It might be early to get worried about, but who is going to fly the Bombardier C-series jets?

The CSeries aircraft is the first family of aircraft specifically designed for the 110- to 130-seat market segment.

Designed in two basic five-seat abreast versions, one version, the C110, will carry 110 passengers, while a larger version, the C130, will seat 130 passengers. Each of the two variants may be configured for either short-haul travel with a 1,800 nautical mile range or for transcontinental flights of up to 3,000 nautical miles. The CSeries family of aircraft will provide flexibility and range capability to expand airlines networks beyond current hub-and-spoke operations to point-to-point flying.-Bombardier Web Site

 

[Carl_Spackler]

Now even us non-military folks can have chance to fly a C130.

 

[Empennage]

Why does ALPA encourage airline management to operate alter ego air carriers? Why do we allow our union to negotiate these deals?

This E170 "revolution" is being done with Duane Woerth's signature at the bottom of every contract.

We truly are our own worst enemy.

Now I have read this about 5 times and I just can not figure out how you got about making this kind of false & misleading statement. While I would endorse ALPA (or ALPO) as a whole, I can not endorse each indiviudal pilot group and their respective decisions.

GoJet is simply a method of side-stepping the TSA ALPA pilot group. I don't think you can look any other way at it. It's not ALPA or the APA that has chosen this outcome...it's TSA MGMT/HK.

Case in point...Freedom Airlines. I'll give you a little background for explaination.

Mesa MGMT began by using the U scope language as the reason for operating aircraft in the set range (yes, sim to APA scope). A real fix was put forth by the Mesa MEC (ALPA Group) to have the AAA MEC (U) change their scope....hence, completed.

With the scope relief, Mesa could now operate the CRJ 700/900s under the Mesa certificate with the Mesa pilots. Heck, they could have used the Mesa pilots at Freedom, but MGMT continued to head down the path of desruction of spending millions of dollars to create a new airline.

In the end, where is Mesa? All CRJ 700/900 aircraft are at Mesa Airlines proper. Where is Freeedom, well...1 Beech 1900 to keep the certificate. So, why the millions of dollars on Freedom? Why the countless hours of the FAAs time and taxpayers dollars? Why the alter-ego? Just for 1 Beech?

So - as you can see, not ALPAs fault....next slide please!

Also, even if TSA needs to create a new certificate, they can use their EXISTING pilots to fly the airplanes. Now the TSA pilots just have to bargain for those jobs.

I would put money on it saying that both groups should be integrated in the future.

 

[Empennage]

Yes, I can not spell. I never claim to be able to.

 

[Empennage]

ALPA doesn't "encourage" any such thing. ALPA has no more power to force a seniority merger than I do. The mainline managements are not going to allow a single seniority list. It's just that simple.

Yes, ALPA does...You must bargain for it.

I wonder if ASA is bargaining for a merged list with Comair right now.

 

[Ty Webb]

I have said this for years, and I will say it again, "We need a National Pilot's Guild". One that sets minimum pay rates that ALL carriers must pay. Your own union negotiates your CBA but no pilot can operate an aircraft for less than the rate set by the Guild. I would say the DAL numbers would be an approximate starting point.

Once pilot wages are even across the board, the carriers will have to look elsewhere to save money and raise ticket prices.

 

[Flechas]

Agree with Ty, this paycut game is getting out of hand.

 

[elcapitan]

The majors could purchase 90 and 100 seat aircraft and fly them. That would stop the regionals from flying bigger aircraft. At the current time they don't want to make those purchases. JetBlue is the only exception.


Unfortunately, there is a shakedown in the industry and the majors could stop it if they wanted to. My guess is there will probably be more mergers before this is over with and we will get down to a couple of majors who then can charge the ticket prices they need to increase revenue and generate a profit.