Thats All I Can Stands...

[Immelman]

The problem is that taxation rates go far beyond the % the IRS & state take away. The low wage earner spends much more income (as a % of total) on everyday needs... all these items are taxed (sales), and their manufacture/shipping/distribution/retail sale are taxed as well!

Or, better yet.. if I make 1/2 mil a year and don't spend frivilously, but do "live good", maybe 15-20% of my income goes to things like cars, travel, recreation, entertainment, dining, groceries, etc.

Conversely, if I make $20K and have a kid & wife to support, a LOT of my money (perhaps all after taxes and housing cost) is going into goods and services. My point? Those goods and services have been taxed in every way shape and form, affecting their price... the price is, of course, passed on to the consumer.

As such, I don't think the argument of a poor person facing a 9% federal tax rate vs 33% for a rich person holds much water.

By the way, what will the rich guy do with his/her excess income? Invest it wisely in securities, bonds, real estate, etc... that is taxed too... when they sell it (aside from property tax)!

 

[DIRT]

NEWSFLASH!!!!!

The person making 1/2 a mil a year obviously has a marketable skill which he has probably obtained through hard work and effort the guy making 20k per yr probably sits on his couch in the evening and drinks beer and watches wrasslin, so indeed the person making more money should enjoy the fruits of his or her labor. I am all for a flat tax I am tired of working my a$s off only to pay a bunch of taxes while I see guys my age with a bunch of snotty kids running around and paying less taxes !!! I am all for everyone paying a flat tax that is a fair tax system, a graduated scale stiffles capitalism.

Noam, that is real easy to say until you work 70 or 80 hours a week to have nice things and instead see the extra money STOLEN from you just because the federal governments decides you make more so you should be taxed at a higher rate.

 

[Snakum]

the guy making 20k per yr probably sits on his couch in the evening and drinks beer and watches wrasslin

Evidently, you haven't yet met any of the tens of thousands of educated professional software developers, engineers, mid-level manufacturing managers, and pilots who have been laid off and have been forced to work at Walmart or Home Depot for $7.50 per hour after their unemployment ran out and they still have a family to feed.

God forbid you rabid Capitalists ever need to suck the government teat to ensure your kids don't go to bed hungry. We'll see what tune you're singing then.



Minh

 

[bart]

tens of thousands of educated professional software developers, engineers, mid-level manufacturing managers, and pilots who have been laid off and have been forced to work at Walmart or Home Depot for $7.50 per hour after their unemployment ran out and they still have a family to feed.

If they had six months to find a job, and they are working at Wal-Mart for $7.50 an hour, then they have been lazy while on the dole. Or they had no marketable skills to begin with.

Your argument is ridiculous. Show me someone who is "forced" to work at Wal-Mart for $7.50, and I will show you someone that has consistently made poor choices.

 

[DIRT]

Snakum,

Your right I guess fortune does play into it but I sure as he!! would not be a compaining whiner about it. I would for instance try and get additional education so I can again have a mareketable skill or if all else fails get 2 x 7.50 USD per hour jobs and work 80 hours per week. This is not just rhetoric from some pampered "rabid capitalist" I have had to work like a field hand for peanuts and I am sorry but when these guys get there next "professional" job can you please pay me the F*ck back for all the taxes I pay now and conversely if I by some stroke of misfortune find myself unemployed I will not resort to "sucking on government teat"

Dirt

 

[Immelman]

My point precisely about the 20k income vs 500k income: Implementing a "flat tax" will not be so flat with all the other taxes in place that make our society run.

If you overhauled the entire system so it were flat... I'd have a different view. I'm just saying that making an across the board flat income tax without changing anything else, as was proposed in the last couple election years, won't be very fair.

If you want to talk taxes what about trade..why the hell did 'W' cave in on the steel tariffs? What were those, the last tariffs we had? Last time I checked it was things like trade duties that kept the dollar strong and jobs from going overseas. How many dollars does it take to buy a single Euro now?? The first time I went overseas I bought Euros for 90 cents each.....

Let's face it, when it comes to certain issues (particularly exporting jobs), I see no difference between George W and Clinton. This GATT/NAFTA/WTO crap is a real threat to our future way of life, and all the big boys are in on it.

 

[Birdstrike]

That wasn't so simple

Flint4 quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"...If you are stupid you think the rich don't pay their fare share of taxes...."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lighten up there Flinto, I didn't say that. My point was that SOMEBODY's gotta pay the bill since it's a given that that SPENDING WILL NOT BE CUT BY ANY CURRENT POLITICIAN IN SIGHT. Now, go from there.

Yes, the rich pay their fair share of taxes but they and everybody else on the teat may need to PAY MORE since revenue is not rising fast enough to cover the deficits. Spending cannot be cut enough because ENTITLEMENTS are steadily rising.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda cut spending isn't political reality, especially in an election year. I would support a flat tax that covers the bills. Absent that, I don't see any way out of this mess short of raising taxes on everybody.

And don't tell me to cut spending, that just ain't gonna happen. So if you don't raise taxes, what are you gonna do??

 

[likeitis]

According to Bart I guess I made some bad decisions. I went to college after high school followed by flight school. While in college I got myself a commercial drivers license and drove pretty much any piece of heavy equipment you can name. I taught for 2 years and spent 1996-2003 flying for a few different airlines. While I was at my last airline I worked part-time at Home Depot because I was building a house(contracted most of it myself) and to educate myself on the particulars.

Well in April I was furloughed. Soon after I went and got my type in the 737. Since before my date of furlough I have been sending applications and resumes to airlines and nonaviation related companies. In all I have sent out 100+ resumes for aviation companies and 50+ applications for nonaviation related companies. These are positions in warehouses, retail, driving truck, etc. I have yet to get one phone call for an interview. Even in positions in where they have told me that my qualifications are impressive. Especially all the truck driving positons. I have been told that they won't hire me because of my pilot background and my furlough status. It's not like these positions are paying 15/hour. Most are in the 7.50-12.00 range and I can't get an interview because of of what I was doing prior.

Now I'm not writing this for anyone's pity because of prior planning and my wife's work we are doing fine. I'm just trying to point out that sometimes it can be even harder for someone who is going from a position like a pilot to even getting a job at wal-mart. Every HR person I talk to think that I'm joking about trying to get a job with them and they tell my that they aren't willing to take the chance because it's obvious I won't be there long. I ask how they know this about a person that they have never met or talked to prior to me waking them up from their afternoon nap. Christ if some of these places would have hired me back in April when I applied I would have been there almost a year by now. Most likely longer than many of their employees. Oh well, I guess I'll go back to beating my head against the wall, it will do me just as good.

 

[enigma]

Likeitis,

Man, start your own business. I'm seriously looking into it myself just in case I find myself out of a flying job. Heck, the way aviation is going, I may just get feed up and quit if I manage to develop a good enough business deal.

Don't let it get you down,
enigma

 

[flint4xx]

This is a generic comment, not addressed to anyone in particular. If you take offense, then you will be very upset this November.



If you cut taxes, people (citizens) spend. Spending generates revenue for the governement. Why do airlines lower prices? To get more people to fly. It IS simple.

A democrat will spend the earned revenue on social programs. A republican will buy an aircraft carrier. Which option makes this a better country...? One creates dependence, the other independence. For example...

A man stands on a street corner panhandling for change. You can give him money thereby encouraging him to stand there and beg for more, or you can not give him anything, and maybe he will get a job and care for himself. Which does him more good?What would you teach a child to do in this scenario?

And before anybody thinks you can guilt me into giving a sh!t about this looser, you need to review Darwins' theory of natural selection. I already pay enough in my tax bracket to support several of them. If your heart bleeds for them then join the peace corp.

"If you aren't a liberal in your twenties, you don't have a heart. If you aren't conservative in your forties, you don't have a brain." Sir Winston Churchill

Socialism:
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

Capitalism:
An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

Everybody needs a little reminder about what made this country the one that everybody wants to come to, or be like.

One last little tidbit, look at the back of a $1 bill. See the unfinished pyramid? It symbolizes that this country is a "work in progress" That was obvious to the founding fathers over two hundred years ago. You can effect change on election day if you don't like it the way it is.

 

[likeitis]

Generic comment and all it is very simplistic. If the world was just that way it would be easy.

 

[likeitis]

We have a business. It's how we survive. Just like Rumsfield, Chenay and the rest of the crooks. If these mental midgets can do it, I can do it better. Their AG believes that women were born out of a man's rib. How ludicris is that?

 

[flint4xx]

You call them mental midgets, although you can't provide any supporting information. You can't even spell properly. Here are their qualifications...

President George W. Bush: Received a Bachelors Degree from Yale University
> and an MBA from Harvard Business School. He served as an F-102 pilot for
> the Texas Air National Guard.
>
> Vice President Dick Cheney: Earned a B.A. in 1965 and an M.A. in 1966,
> both in political science.
>
> Secretary of State Colin Powell: Educated in the New York City public
> schools, graduating from the City College of New York (CCNY), where he
> earned a Bachelor's Degree in geology. His further academic achievements
> include a Master of Business Administration Degree from George Washington
> University. Secretary Powell is the recipient of numerous U. S. and
> foreign military awards and decorations.
>
> Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld: Attended Princeton University on
> Scholarship (AB, 1954) and served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as a Naval
> aviator.
>
> Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge: Raised in a working class family
> in veterans' public housing in Erie, he earned a scholarship to Harvard,
> graduating with honors in 1967. After his first year at The Dickinson
> School of Law, he was drafted into the U. S. Army, where he served as an
> infantry staff sergeant in Vietnam, earning the Bronze Star for Valor.
>
> National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice: Earned her Bachelor's Degree
> in Political Science, Cum Laude and Phi Beta Kappa, from the University of
> Denver in 1974; her Master's from the University of Notre Dame in 1975;
> and her Ph. D. from the Graduate School of International Studies at the
> University of Denver in 1981. (Note: Rice enrolled at the University of
> Denver at the age of 15, graduating at 19 with a Bachelor's Degree in
> Political Science (Cum Laude).


and you?

 

[Snakum]

If they had six months to find a job, and they are working at Wal-Mart for $7.50 an hour, then they have been lazy while on the dole. Or they had no marketable skills to begin with.

Sorry dude ... that's not even CLOSE to the truth. I personally know seven men, each with at least a four-year degree and many years experience in the IT industry - and four of whom have a family to feed - who were on unemployment for six, nine, or twelve months under the extension, and who have now had to take d@mn near minimum wage jobs at Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart, or third-shift customer support. That's just the people I know personally, and doesn't count the guys I've run into at thee places and found out in passing that they were once pilots (2), IT Professionals (2), or manufacturing engineers or managers (3).

Sorry ... you're very ill-informed. However, should your employer decide he needs to sub out your job to a lower bidder, move his operation to Mexico, or just close up shop ... you'll become very well-informed pretty quickly.



Minh

 

[vossdr1]

Their AG believes that women were born out of a man's rib. How ludicris is that?

About as ludicrous as your spelling.

AG Ashcroft believes that a woman was created out of a man's rib. The belief in an omnipotent God is held by many. If God is omnipotent, then ascribing creative miracles to Him is not ludicrous or fantastic. However, I believe that discussion is taking place under the thread Bible Defense.

 

[Dizel8]

We will never have a government that cares about Joe Sixpack?

The list of reasons why is long indeed, from the amount of money you have to spend to get elected, to the pay the "esteemed members" of congress makes.

How do you get re-elected? By getting porkbarrel products to your state, makes no difference if they need it, just make sure they get it. It will make you look good! Eddie Murphy made a funny movie about that.

All this talk about taxes. Taxes are killing us. Want proof, look at most western european contries. The day we get a flat tax will be a great day indeed. Yes, the middle class is paying way more than their fair share. The funny interview on TV was Al Sharpton and John Stossel. Shaprton just about lost his lunch, when Stossel pointed out the error of Sharptons typical tirade about the "rich not paying enough". What is interesting to note, is how the tax burden has shifted over the years from Industry to the consumer. The taxation system is unfair and we continue to see how the "poor" is trying to penalize the "rich". Well, the really rich have all kinds of clever tax schemes, so the middle class ends up holding the bag. Want proof, open the Biz class magazine on say AA and look for the companies that offer ways to reduce your tax burden.

The US is spending way too much money and we need to cut off access to the checkbook. Sure, there are plenty of programs that should be adequately funded, but there is so much waste taking place to be ridiculous. I am sure you all remember the story about the 500$ hammer and the 1200$ toilet seat, well it is still going on. Latest would be Boeings shenanigans. How about researching what the VA hospitals is forced to over pay in medicine cost, because some shady deal was signed. You want to see how bad it is, just read info from the GAO, it will show where the money goes.

Why did Gray Davis want to give illegal immigrants the right to drive, votes of course. Why is Bush changing the immigration laws, me thinks it is the same reason. Perhaps this time, he can get Florida behind him. Although, from what I can see, the Hispanic are already asking for more.

When one argues, that US needs to care of their own, then we always hear some sob story, how the greatest nation on earth needs to help. Of course we do, but how much should we be expected to give? The Saudi's along with the middle east are always moaning about the Palestinians, they have given them less than 400Mil since 1990, I dare not think how much aid the US have given and continues to give. When there are earthquakes in Iran, we want to help. War in Liberia, we help. Kuwait gets run over, we help. Every time something burns, we help put out the fire. Nice, great, swell, but exactly what do we get in return, nada, zip, zilch. Oh, I forgot, sometimes we do get condenmed by the UN and a select few nations. One in particular inhabited by cheese eating surrender monkeys.

Yes, we should give, but that must be held in objectivity to the plight of the US. We need the politicians to stop worrying about what is good for them and focus on what is good for the country. Sadly, I think that is hoping for something that will never happen.

Soapbox back in closet!

 

[100LL... Again!]

Snakum-

You left-wingers only see right wingers in black-and-white.

So there.



In reality, I'm VERY comfortable agreeing that I DO see many issues asa black-and-white.

Why is this automatically wrong? I can suggest that you perhaps you have far too much ambiguity in your perspective? Maybe you don't have enough definition in your opinions. Hm?

Give me an example where right-wingers have a narrow view where you do not.


And re: Mental midgets-

Ha! - "ludicris" says it all. So I suppose we should be picking up the pearls of wisom that drop from your mouth? Your qualifications to speak on others mental midgetry are highly questionable.

 

[Snakum]

You don't read very well do you 100LL?

Or perhaps you read just enough of a post to go on another irrational tear. I am no more a 'left-winger' than you are a rational, well-mannered, human being. Rather ... you are a first class PXXX

Minh "Centrist" Thong
(Now starting the name-calling first when Nazi-bots begin spewing irrational garbage.)

 

[AA717driver]

Look at what we have---John Kerry has a net worth of over $500 Million bucks. Friend of the people? Right. He came from prep schools, lived abroad and attended Yale. He did one year in Viet Nam, to his credit.

George Bush is the second best Democratic President this country has had. His father was the best. He is spending like a drunken sailor on social programs. What the Dems. hate him for the most is that he is stealing their platform.

As for the debt and deficits. For sixty years, the Democratic Party had no problem with deficit spending and running up the debt--so long as it bought votes. Now, it's a problem. Riiight.

In the '90's, we had budget surpluses. It was just on paper. The Clinton administration(and maybe his fellow Democratic predecessor, G. H. W. Bush) helped this along by allowing the inclusion of the Social Security "Fund" to be included in the General Fund. Presto! We have a surplus.

When the cyclical recession hit, there went the tax revenue and with it the "surplus". (Plus, with G. W. financing the war in Afghanistan[totally necessary, IMO] and the war in Iraq[a long-overdue event if not immediately necessary] along with his own barrell of pork, we had no chance to avoid going further into debt.)

The bottom line is that Congress is out of control with both parties spending trillions on pork just to secure their seats. The Democrats are no strangers to big money interests as are the Republicans.

The Republic envisioned and built by our Founding Fathers has morphed into an oligarchy(rule by a few for the Riddle grads ) from which there is no escape.TC

 

[Snakum]

AA717 puts more eloquently what I've been saying all along ...

... there's not much difference between the parties anymore, both are equally corrupt and morally bankrupt. The whole boat is out of control ... and there's no one on the horizon who looks to able to right the ship.

Minh