Test

[xanderman]

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[Timebuilder]

That's interesting.

For post number 41, you post a "test."

Hmm.

 

[PA-44Typed]

interesting too is the fact that 41 people have viewed this "test"

 

[EagleRJ]

Well, I might as well hijack this thread

Timebuilder-

As long as your're here...

Why do you guys all put your hands up in the air at church? I'm not trying to belittle you- it's just something no other denomination does. I'm wondering what the origin of that practice is.

 

[Northern Lights]

I know that was directed at TB, but here are my $.02.

When people wave their hands, it is an expression of emotion. If your favorite sports team was in the finals, you might shout for joy or wave your hands in the air.

If you've ever been to the midwest, you might see a lot less of the expressions of emotion. The church I go to is filled with Swedes, Norwiegans and Germans. We're pretty reserved, and sometimes I wish that they would get a little more excited at church.

The most important thing though, is not how you worship, but WHO you worship.

"Shout for joy to the Lord, all the earth. Worship the Lord with gladness; come before him with joyfull songs.....Enter his gates with thanksgiving and his courts with praise." --From the 100th Psalm.

 

[EagleRJ]

The most important thing though, is not how you worship, but WHO you worship.

I agree wholeheartedly.

It's too bad TB doesn't share that view!

 

[Timebuilder]

Re: Well, I might as well hijack this thread

Timebuilder-

As long as your're here...

Why do you guys all put your hands up in the air at church? I'm not trying to belittle you- it's just something no other denomination does. I'm wondering what the origin of that practice is.

To the best of my knowlege, these hand wavers are a part of what is called the Charismatic Movement. While they don't meet all of the tests to be regarded as a cult, their specific ideas are based around a concept that I have heard called being "slain in the spirit," which is not worth going into here.

Many Biblical Christians find that this set of ideas is not supported by scripture, a least not to the point of these ideas receiving the special emphasis that is apparent in the teaching.

No one in my church waves thier hands, and we can always spot someone who is visiting from such a church, as they are the "only ones" with a hand in the air.

I see hand waving quite a bit in TV commercials for "comtemporary Christian music" CD's. Maybe the target audience for this music is the Charismatics, and maybe the hand waving just looks interesting in a TV commercial.

I don't have a clue as to how this might have started, but middle eastern people wave their hands a lot, including the Jews. Maybe that's part of it.

 

[Timebuilder]

Who you worship and how...

I agree wholeheartedly.

It's too bad TB doesn't share that view!

My view comes from the Bible because it's God's view.

The Bible is pretty specific about it's teaching. It is specific about what God considers to be an "abomination," about how we should conduct ourselves as men and women, about how to place God first in our lives, the entire package.

It doesn't tell us to drink poison or handle snakes. It doesn't tell us to pray to Christ's mother. It doesn't say to expect other doctrines, using other replacement "Christs," from other beliefs. It doesn't say we should take multiple wives, and it doesn't say to expect a book claiming to detail Christ visiting the New World and walking among native peoples of North America. It doesn't teach meditation as a means to enlightenment. It doesn't advocate yogic postures for spiritual health. It doesn't say to use crystals for healing light, or to use special breathing to remember your birth. It doesn't say to do a great many things that people do, believing they are coming closer to God.

It does warn us about all of the possibilities for false teaching and false prophets. It says that it is 100% sufficient as doctrine and guide. It says to spread it's knowlege to the entire world, that faith in Christ is the ONLY method of salvation, and that there is no other name, no other method, no other Bible, no other heaven, and no other way. None.

Think about it: if God doesn't have the right to dictate to us how we should follow His teaching, and the manner of praise and worship, then who would?

Trust me, if I was going to construct a theology on my own, it would be different, indeed. But it's not up to me, Mohammed, the pope, Buddah, nor anyone else.

It's up to God. That's why He gave us His Word.

 

[Northern Lights]

Good points TB.

The main thing that I try to remember during public worship is that we are there to worship (worth-ship -- give worth to) God for who he is and what he has done for us.

It bothers me when there is conflict in a church about what type of music is used. The young ones like the up beat stuff, and the older ones want the hymns.

What I try to always remember is that it is not for my pleasure, it is for God.

To take it a step further, worship should be a way of life, not something we do for an hour on Sunday morning. The way we treat others, how we use our time and money can all be forms of worship.

 

[TonyC]

To take it a step further, worship should be a way of life, not something we do for an hour on Sunday morning. The way we treat others, how we use our time and money can all be forms of worship.

To take it a step further would be to take it a step too far. A closer study of the Bible will reveal that worship has a beginning and an end. Among the roughly 191 times the Bible refers to worship are found clear references to "going" to or "coming" from worship. Take Abraham for example. In Genesis 22, when God commanded Abraham to offer his son Isaac as a burnt offering in the land of Moriah, he told his servant on the third day, "And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you" (Genesis 22:5) Gideon "worshipped, and returned into the host of Israel" (Judges 7:15). Elkanah and his family "rose up in the morning early, and worshipped before the Lord, and returned, and came to their house to Ramah" (I Samuel 1:19). When the infant son of David died, note the specific order of events listed: "Then David arose from the earth, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the Lord, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat" (II Samuel 12:20). The Ethiopian treasurer "had come to Jerusalem for to worship, [w]as returning" (Acts 8:27-28).

Therefore, since the Bible distinctively uses terms as "come to worship" (Isaiah 66:23) and "go...to worship" (Zechariah 14:16), it is not correct to say that everything one does is worship.

Worship is not entertainment. The only spectator in worship is our heavenly father (John 4:23-24). We worship God to honor and praise Him, not to honor and praise ourselves.

Worship is not to be confused with service. A close and critical study of the Bible shows that while we could consider all worship a type of service, not all of service is worship. The Hebrew writer designated distinctions between sacrifice of worship and sacrifice of service when he wrote, "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased" (Hebrews 13:15-16). Jesus clears the distinction in his commandments to Satan in Matthew 4:10: "Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship (proskuneseis) the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve (latreuseis)." Jesus did not confuse the two; neither should we.

Worship is not that which one performs continuously. Because of the confusion between worship and service, it is no wonder many would come to the false conclusion that all of life is worship. The defect is in confusing worship and service. Worship has the qualities of intention with reference to will and time--the mind involves a beginning point and an ending point. Thus, it is not something one does twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week.

 

[Timebuilder]

I think you're right, Tony. Worship is when we stop doing things for us, and do something specifically for God.

It bothers me when there is conflict in a church about what type of music is used. The young ones like the up beat stuff, and the older ones want the hymns.

There is a lot of good material on music choice for worship, and why some types are appropriate for worship, while others are not. The problem with much of what is called "contemporary Christian music" is that is uses the same kind of music that dishonors God to try and honor Him. The idea of simply substituting lyrics as a method of making music acceptable for worship is not sound, and is the basis for a great amout of discussion in music ministry circles.

The question for worship music is one of it's nature. Is it Godly or worldly? Does it honor God, or does it feed our sensual nature? It's an important distiction to understand.

You might find this link helpful:

http://bibletrigger.faithweb.com/ccm-article.htm

 

[Northern Lights]

The question for worship music is one of it's nature. Is it Godly or worldly? Does it honor God, or does it feed our sensual nature? It's an important distiction to understand.

Exactly. I remember some radio preacher once saying "Just because you put christian words the devil's music, doesn't make it christian."

I fear that we are raising a generation of kids that are more interested in entertainment than true worship and study of God's word.

I remember reading about a new church that has different aeras to worship. For example part of the church was a coffee bar, where you drink your half caf, non fat, no whip, cappucino while singing and listening to a sermon! There was another section where there was art supplies and you could draw/paint your feelings while at church. That all seems a bit too worldly and sensual to me.

 

[mnixon]

and i quote from my pops who is an episcopalian priest "Some of the best Christians ive met have not step foot in a church." Just because you go to church doesnt mean your a good christian. Most people are the biggest hipocrits (sp?) ever. All the good lord asks is that you praise him in day to day life, not just sunday. No denomination is better than an other. In all reality, the whole christian movement is a good progress, but in my personal opinion it is being obscured by all the different denominations. Case in point...my roomate is a devout church goer at one of the huge churchs in town...ya know the one, to see the "preacher" you have to watch the video screen and follow the bouncing dot karaoke screen hymns (which i might add im not sure i understand, just anyone can get up there and talk and influence many?) yet he is convinced that my other roommate and myself will go to hell because im episcopalion and my other roomate is catholic! He was talking to his girlfriend one night and i heard, "dont worry, theyll be judged in their own time and theyll find that we were right all along!" What in the hell is that about. arent we both praying to the holy trinity? so why am i going to hell? because i continue in the lords prayer past the point of "But deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen." and you dont? It is ridiculous. These are the people who ruin faith and religion for the rest of us. Who am i to judge you because i believe differently than you. Sorry for ranting....just my 2 cents for what its worth

 

[Timebuilder]

and i quote from my pops who is an episcopalian priest "Some of the best Christians ive met have not step foot in a church." Just because you go to church doesnt mean your a good christian.

You're right. Going to church does not make you a good Christian.

That said, Christians who conform to God's teachings in the Bible, and I am willing to concede that doing so is "good," DO usually obey the instruction to gather together with other believers for praise, worship, instruction, and fellowship.

Don't let "pops'" observation sway you into thinking that attending a church of believers is not a hallmark of obedience to God.

All the good lord asks is that you praise him in day to day life, not just sunday.

See above. Those elements are not required for salvation, but all believers are directed to comply with the behavior that God finds pleasing among His followers.

No denomination is better than an other.

This is true on it's face, unless the "denomination" in question is not following the teachings found in the Bible, and has either ignored or added to those teachings. In that case, you should remove yourself from that flock immediately, because they are not following the Good Shepherd.

yet he is convinced that my other roommate and myself will go to hell because im episcopalion and my other roomate is catholic!

Just so you are not mislead, there is one word, one doctrine, and one savior. If you follow another doctrine, are you following Christ? The entire Bible is His word. Be advised.

He was talking to his girlfriend one night and i heard, "dont worry, theyll be judged in their own time and theyll find that we were right all along!" What in the hell is that about. arent we both praying to the holy trinity? so why am i going to hell? because i continue in the lords prayer past the point of "But deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen." and you dont? It is ridiculous.

If you let yourself get caught up in the fixation on one line of a prayer, you have missed the point. That said, that prayer is an indication of a broader difficulty that you face, and that is the other teachings which are not of God, and the teachings of God that are ignored by some groups. Here's what they, these other groups, are doing: they are fashioning for themselves a belief system that contains Christ, but does not follow His word. Following Christ, which is “believing in Him,” is the key to salvation. If you don't follow in belief, you will not be saved. Get it? If you will not be saved, then where will you be? Your roommate has reached a valid conclusion based on the Biblical teaching of Christ. If you have a beef about that, you need to take it up with Christ, not your roommate.

If you follow Christ in belief, you must therefore adhere to His teachings, and reject other teachings.

These are the people who ruin faith and religion for the rest of us. Who am i to judge you because i believe differently than you. Sorry for ranting....just my 2 cents for what its worth

What is it worth? It is worth a great deal of contemplation about where you stand and what you believe. No man should judge, but he SHOULD communicate the truth of the Bible, which many people regard as "judging." Start with 2Timothy 3:16-17, and ask your roommate just WHY he believes as he does. He will show you in scripture, or with help from another brother in Christ, the scripture that is the basis of belief regarding how God wants us to worship, and what he has said about the various teachings that some hold to be God's, which are in reality the teachings of Man.

Now, what of Episcopalians? Are they adhering to the teachings of God? Have a look at this:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/121/54.0.html

or this:

http://www.gctelegram.com/news/2004/may/3/story3.html

Regarding that, this is Romans 1:20-25

"20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."

So, I'd think long and hard about what God might think about those who follow a doctrine of Man instead of His doctrine, the doctrine of God.


Be aware, and be ready.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Ah, now I get it.

It was a test to see if any thread can be turned into a religious discussion.

 

[Timebuilder]

Maybe so, but the thread starter and the hijacker (apparently appropriately dressed in his avatar) are two different people.

As I have always said, if someone asks, albeit indirectly, I'll answer.



Hey, how's the new house?

 

[mnixon]

I'm more than willing to be open to new ideas! I judge no man on race creed or sexuality. As far as the homosexuality issue, who really cares just as long as they do the job that they were elected to do. Would you not go to work for a company because the ceo was a homosexual? As far as the roomate goes, are you agreeing with him in the fact that we are going to hell because of our beliefs? If so i feel sorry for you that you actually put yourself on a pedestal higher than others who do not believe the same things. God created man in his vision and we are all the same like it or not. Buddhist, christian, jewish, black, white, gay straight, male, female. Yes we will be judged one day, but will the lord deny me the rights of my neighbor because I dont pray to the virgin mary, or because a bishop of my church is a homosexual? I think not! I think you have valid points but i wish you could open your eyes to others views. You may not agree with them but it will give you insight into others which is more powerful than any sermon...day to day interaction and praise.

 

[glasspilot]

Test






Notice Post #1!

P.S. Consider this thread "un-hijacked"

 

[skyking1976]

The Right Rev. Minh should be here any minute now...

Hey Typhoon, love the new avatar. Is he riding the barberpole in that thing?

SK

 

[Timebuilder]

As far as the homosexuality issue, who really cares just as long as they do the job that they were elected to do.

We can have a very long discussion about this from the civil side or the Biblical side, but both agree that our government representatives should be "moral people," and this clearly departs from the general understnding of morality as we know it from God and our culture.

The short answer is "God cares," and so do moral people.

Would you not go to work for a company because the ceo was a homosexual?

Probably not, since I would be partnering with someone who is knowingly and purposefully living a lifestyle that is abhorrent to God.

As far as the roomate goes, are you agreeing with him in the fact that we are going to hell because of our beliefs?

Let me spell this out for you.

Being saved from hell is through belief in Christ.

Belief in Christ starts in our hearts, and is demonstrated by our words and actions, by how we conform ourselves to His teaching, and the examples of behavior we set for others while doing so.

Now, if you are following doctrines that contradict His word, the Bible, and you support a church hierarchy that is allowing sin to flourish, then are you "believing in Him?"

I think the only answer can be "no," and you are not saved from hell.

If so i feel sorry for you that you actually put yourself on a pedestal higher than others who do not believe the same things.

I am not on a "pedestal." I am a lowly sinner, but one who has struggled to conform to His Word, and received the saving grace of Christ. It is God who is hurt by those who "do not believe the same things." God cares for them FAR MORE than I do. But since He cares, so do I, as an obedient servant. I am directed to continue to correct misunderstandings about what provides salvation and what does not, what honors God and what angers Him.

God created man in his vision and we are all the same like it or not. Buddhist, christian, jewish, black, white, gay straight, male, female. Yes we will be judged one day, but will the lord deny me the rights of my neighbor because I dont pray to the virgin mary, or because a bishop of my church is a homosexual?

Deny you "rights?" No. Rights are that which we have are codified according to the constitution. When we depart from being a "moral people" by asserting rights that are not from God, we are lost as a nation.

He WILL, however, deny you salvation. Yes, He will.

I think you have valid points but i wish you could open your eyes to others views. You may not agree with them but it will give you insight into others which is more powerful than any sermon...day to day interaction and praise.

My friend, I am 100% conversant with those "other views." It is this "up close and personal" experience that makes my faith all the stronger.

I can see the evil that people are doing every day, just I am solidly aware that I too am a sinner, and that the evil in the world has increased in its frequency and boldness in my own lifetime. It has flown aircraft into buildings. It has spread a deadly virus among millions. It has destroyed the family for purposes of lust and personal satisfaction. It has driven God from our schools and from our hearts. It is strong, and you must be strong to resist it.

And you would be wise to embrace the free gift of salvation that He is offering to you, because the days grow short.

 

[mnixon]

Well then i guess we know where you stand on homosexuality. If you can honestly say that you would not work for a company with homosexuality, then you must have a real hard time making a living unless you work from home considering id say that 99% of all companies employ at least one homosexual. And as far as your reply to the "elected official" i wasnt speaking of the government rather the episcopal church. We elect our bishops not appoint. Oh yea why cant episcopalians play chess? Because we cant tell the difference between a bishop and a queen! hardy har har! thanks im here all week! try the veal and tip your waitresses!

 

[Timebuilder]

Well then i guess we know where you stand on homosexuality. If you can honestly say that you would not work for a company with homosexuality, then you must have a real hard time making a living unless you work from home considering id say that 99% of all companies employ at least one homosexual. And as far as your reply to the "elected official" i wasnt speaking of the government rather the episcopal church. We elect our bishops not appoint. Oh yea why cant episcopalians play chess? Because we cant tell the difference between a bishop and a queen! hardy har har! thanks im here all week! try the veal and tip your waitresses!

Your question asked about the CEO, the person who sets the tone for the company. On that basis alone, I answered your question. Don't pull the liberal prank of changing the parameters to try and insert a new variable.

Good point about Bishops being elected.

In any election, whether we are talking about a government official or a bishop, we should, both as a moral civil people and an observant group of believers before God, retain the foundational beliefs that include moral character and examples of behavior that we want our citizens and our children to model.

And yes, I work for myself. I'm a better boss than others I've had.

 

[xanderman]

Yeah no kidding!

Ah, now I get it.

It was a test to see if any thread can be turned into a religious discussion.

And to think the guy who started it... me... is a Mormon! The world is truely a strange place.
ANDY

P.S. We all have beliefs but let's be careful not to offend. We are all friends here...

 

[Timebuilder]

...and friends don't let friends miss being saved.

 

[Super 80]

First comment: I can't believe I wasn't clued in about this thread (this is about religion after all).

Exactly. I remember some radio preacher once saying "Just because you put christian words the devil's music, doesn't make it christian."

We once had a woman that didn't stay for our worship service because we didn't have an organ. In fact, we're still looking for a keyboard player to join the worship music team. So right now, all we have are a couple of guitarists and a drummer. (Electric drums are so nice because one, they don't take up as much room, and two you can turn them down enough so you can still hear yourself sing while they play!)

I am reminded that the old hymns we know were the contemporary music of their day!

So we do sing contemporary Christian songs along with the old hymns too. They are new songs after all, and not retreads of Black Sabbath. As long as the words are inline with Scripture, sincere, and from the heart - who cares? Worship can be done with all your heart, mind, body and strength. You can put emotion into it! My church is not legalistic at all in dictating what you can and cannot do. There are very many things the Bible is silent upon, and my congregation is of like mind with me (which is why I go there) that if the Bible is silent, like on card playing, we ought to be too.

Paul said everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial. So I judge whether something is right by that light.

As far as the charismatic movement I don't know. We do not view ourselves as a charismatic Church but some including our pastor will raise their hand and one older lady even waves. I do think we have to realize the spiritual component to worship and often I imagine how I would sing if God were physically present; well He's spiritually present in our worship, so I sing as well as I can. If I raise my hand it's to honor our Father and the Lamb.

Don't you remember how David worshipped? He danced before the Ark of the Covenant. Sometimes, I'd like to get out in the aisle and dance, but I am a little too reserved to do that...

 

[Super 80]

I'm more than willing to be open to new ideas! I judge no man on race creed or sexuality. As far as the homosexuality issue, who really cares just as long as they do the job that they were elected to do.

...but will the lord deny me the rights of my neighbor because I dont pray to the virgin mary, or because a bishop of my church is a homosexual? I think not!

God has a lot to say on sexuality. The circumcision is an outward sign of obedience, a reflection that we men must reel in our basest nature, and an acknowledgment that God has control over our sex life!

Yes, God is present even when making love to your wife. Don't you know about Onan in Genesis 38:9-10? What do you think the Songs of Solomon are all about?

We are not to judge the world, that is for God to do after the Millennium when the dead are raised to be judged. But we are to judge those in the Church.

For instance, say an overt homosexual wants to enter and worship at our Church. He or she is more than welcome! However, in order to be a member, he or she cannot continue to live in that sinful life. Does they have to become straight right away? No, not if I had time to put to death all the sin in my life, but that is the direction they should be working toward - to be more like Christ Jesus! I would expect him or her to not be fornicating their lives away in that same old life style. They may be still struggling with their sin issues, just as other Christians struggle with their weaknesses. But he or she should not be an advocate for sin just as I don't say we all ought to be able to lie, steal or kill. Sin is sin after all and it doesn't matter which of the moral laws you break in order to cross that line.

Now in the matter of whom you elect, look to Timothy for the qualifications. Such a person as the Episcopalians have elected for Bishop does not even qualify for a Deacon, much less an Elder or a Pastor.

Now your Church has affirmed an avowed homosexual in the majority. Those people have not fulfilled their duty as Christians as I read the Epistles. This does not mean they have lost their salvation in my opinion, that is a heart issue, and one that I cannot address. However, as we all will be judged, I would view this action as represented by the wood and stubble in our lives that is burned up. For the true Christian, a decision to be a part of an apostate Church may result in a loss of reward, but having life through Grace is a wholly separate matter as I have come to regard what will be.