Terminations at Flight Options

[KSUPILOT]

It has taken me a few days on how to report this to all of you. With the holiday season upon us Flight options must feel that they need a larger holiday present for themselves. It goes to show how little quality of life this company has.

Recently Flight Options has terminated a 9 year pilot for not being able to get a hold of his co-pilot on a trip. I was not going to write anything on here until I saw the co-pilot gloting that he had gotten this particular pilot terminated. He must be real proud of himeself. When the Co-pilot decided that he would not respond to the Capt cell phone calls, in house calls, knocking on the door the Capt was in a pinch and could only start heading to get the plane ready. The crew was into their 13th hour of rest. The co-pilot had chose to not work with the crew but against the crew. Now this Capt was terminated over this. I give a lot of credit to 1108 for giving it their best. But when I hear a co-pilot gloting over this in a FBO I wanted to punch him. Now a former 9 year veteran of Flt Ops. is sitting at home sweating on how to pay bills, give his 3 children, one who is less than 6 mths old, a good holiday, and put food on the table.

I know this is going to stir up a lot of expresions from all of you. All I am asking is that think before you do something. You might not just be affecting your fellow crew mate, but be putting his whole family in jeopardy. We all think that way when it comes to safety. Let's all work together to get a job done. Seperate company bs from flying. It is the holiday season, let's all try to get along for the next months and make each others life a little better.

Thanks,

KSUPILOT

 

[x402]

How does the FO keep his job? I don't doubt your post, but something seems odd or untold.

 

[hammer2]

has to be more to the story than this. where was dispatch in all this?

 

[arewethereyet]

Flight Options continues to be the worst Fractional out there. Every time I see any of you guys on the road all I hear is bitching and for GOOD REASON.

I believe someone should walk up to the FO and give him a good PUNCH SQUARE IN THE NECK. IF we worked in a factory that boy would have his legs broken, and his face kicked in.

Good luck to the experienced Captain.

HAP

 

[gunfyter]

The crew was into their 13th hour of rest.

Why would he be contacted while in rest?

 

[KSUPILOT]

The captain told the F/o unless there is any changes lets plan with our 1200Lvan ride. Duty was up at 1000L. The company terminated the captain for changing the duty time. That is the official word. If the co-pilot would have got off his attitutde somone would not be stressing now. This Capt is proably one of the more go to capt. I really feel for all of you that have to go to Flt Ops every day.

I agree with the quote someone wrote about if he worked ina factory he would be hurting. When I worked at USAIR on the maint line we had a supervisor who was looking for anything so he can get a better job with the company. He was coming to work, after he got a mech fired, parking in the handicap spot and coming in with two broken legs.

 

[jetwash]

I am sure the company has a target on the FO now.




Any info on the reason behind the other pilot ?

 

[gunfyter]

Sorry.

This sounds like BS.

But if its not I would expect Flight Options to get an expensive lesson in Rest and Duty rules from the IBT1108 lawyers and or the FAA.

Not to mention the Wrongful termination lawsuit.... A friend won one from FLOPS for big money a few years ago.

 

[jetwash]

I heard the Captain resigned.

I guess he was given a choise quit or your fired.
So I don't think there will be any lawsuit.


Did he request a union rep? I know he was NOT a union supporter.

 

[KSUPILOT]

Actually the opposite. He did request union representation. He was a union member. The union actually wen to bat for him so that he could get a resignation instead of a termination.

 

[gunfyter]

This is confusing. Were they in REST or not. How does one get fired for not being contactable while in rest?

 

[KSUPILOT]

acording to company sop's the crew was out of rest at the end of 10 hours rest. Therefore they were 3 hours into their standby. I am not 100% sure how this works. But from what I am told is that after ten hours rest they must be available to the company.

 

[gunfyter]

acording to company sop's the crew was out of rest at the end of 10 hours rest. Therefore they were 3 hours into their standby. I am not 100% sure how this works. But from what I am told is that after ten hours rest they must be available to the company.

So the crew was not in their 13th hour of rest... but in their 3 hr of DUTY.

 

[FR8DOG777]

First all I personally do not know the pilot that was forced to resign. I don't like to see anyone forced out of a job. I can tell you that the company SOP states you must have your phones turned on after 10 hours of rest. They cannot require you to answer the phone unless you were actually on duty. You do not automatically go on duty 10 hours after your release time. You go on duty when the previous release states your duty on time. YOU ARE EXPECTED, NOT REQUIRED to answer after 10 hours of rest. If what you are saying is 100% accurate then he has been screwing his fellow pilots for some time. I do not answer my phone until I am on duty. I am not on duty until I am on duty period. FLOPS has made their bed and now forced to sleep in it. I am not saying he deserved to get fired, or forced a resignation, but he shouldn't be answering his phone while not on duty.

Some guys at the top of the list seem to think they don't need to follow the rest of the pilots on not answering the phone while in rest, on writing up airplanes when and where they break, and by NOT DOING OVERTIME. Why should they, life is good for them. They were hired, made captain immediately, possibly made a SFO, and pretty much riding on the gravy train. Lets not forget that there are guys that got hired shortly after these folks. They are still SICs and still eating crap from the company. Also even the pilots at the top of the list are severely underpaid.

We need 100% participation from all pilots to get a fair contract for everyone. Those that aren't paying their Required dues (Nov 1st has come and gone) are not pulling this train down the tracks. Those that do favors for the company are not helping their fellow pilots. We have a lot of pilots that are employed by FLOPS on the bottom of the list struggling just to feed their families. They qualify for all kinds of government assistance. What about these pilots? Like I said earlier I don't wish unemployment on anyone. I think everyone should be "living the good life", after all we are professionals right? It did take years and thousands of dollars, and many sacrifices to get to where we are today. Working at FLOPS, I can say the return isn't worth the time.

Please register at www.ibt1108.org Please fill out and send in your registration form. Please keep yourself informed on what is going on with our union. Please follow the guidance set forth by our union leadership. It is for our safety. We all want a great contract to come sooner than later. Without your participation it won't come sooner. Remember do nothing illegal for, or against the company. Do no favors for FLOPS no matter how small they may seem.

 

[Diesel]

Allrighty before NJW chimes in I'm still confused.

Crew is in Rest

Captain answers phone which brings him out of rest but not the FO.

FO refuses to answer phone, or anything. Captain keeps trying to get a hold of the FO... to which the FO is not required to answer. It was the captains choice to answer the phone so on duty he goes to the airport.

Company gets pissed because FO doesn't show and crew is unusable.

How again does the Capt get fired? There has to be moooore to this story. If anything they'd try and fire the FO and not the Capt.

There is way more to this.

 

[jetwash]

The captain told the F/o unless there is any changes lets plan with our 1200Lvan ride. Duty was up at 1000L. The company terminated the captain for changing the duty time. .

The way I see it they should have been at the FBO at 10:00 Am but the Capt said to show at 12:00. That is how I understood the post.

I agree there must be more to the story.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Sounds to me like Flops still isn't following the Prospective Rest regs the way they are supposed to be. If you're required to be contactable (i.e., required to have your phone on), you are no longer in rest. "Expected, not required" to answer? What a load of crap.

 

[notaNJApilot]

I'm not sure why the anti-union people are angry. It's very rare that a pilot gets fired at netjets. I can't say any of things that have been done, but even if the pilot was fired he still comes back...like a weed...then spreads to the others. Maybe the FO union will get him rehired.

I'm not against unions - they provide rules the company must abide by, and anything not in the contract can't be done. I am against doing anything to intentionally hurt they people who provide your paycheck. That just seems ridiculous to me.

 

[gunfyter]

Diesel and Grump are right.

If the company wants to fire the captain, maybe they should be made to explain their duty and rest compliance to the Feds.

 

[Fozzy]

Eating their own.

I may be real lost. But it sounds like an A-teamer was fired. He answers a call he is expected but not required to answer. So he is "helping".
Then he steps in it but can't get the whole team togeather. And then they fire him.
Wow.

 

[KSUPILOT]

fozzy sumed it up

 

[gunfyter]

FOZZY got it right?

WOW... I guess it does not pay to be an A-teamer....

How many people will answer the phone and call their partners while in rest now?

 

[Diesel]

Why would the fire the A teamer. He was doing the companies buisness.

Of course notnjapilot would think just because he saw stayed at a hotel on vacation once a year he understands that our job doesnt even come close to ending when the engines shut down.

Where oh where is njw though???? I'm sure her insight would be invaluable.

sigh

 

[cjdriver]

Fozzy's right, score one for following the rest rules.

 

[152SIC]

Sounds to me like Flops still isn't following the Prospective Rest regs the way they are supposed to be. If you're required to be contactable (i.e., required to have your phone on), you are no longer in rest.

What are prospective rest regs? Sorry to interrupt the thread, but I have never heard of these. Are they 91K?

 

[CA1900]

What are prospective rest regs? Sorry to interrupt the thread, but I have never heard of these. Are they 91K?

Yes. Take a look at 91.1057. Included in that section is this paragraph:

Rest period means a period of time required pursuant to this subpart that is free of all responsibility for work or duty prior to the commencement of, or following completion of, a duty period, and during which the flight crewmember or flight attendant cannot be required to receive contact from the program manager. A rest period does not include any time during which the program manager imposes on a flight crewmember or flight attendant any duty or restraint, including any actual work or present responsibility for work should the occasion arise.

Standby means that portion of a duty period during which a flight crewmember is subject to the control of the program manager and holds himself or herself in a condition of readiness to undertake a flight. Standby is not part of any rest period.

Seems pretty clear to me. You're either in rest (where you're under no obligation to be contacted) or you're on duty. There's simply no other status a 91K pilot can be under.

 

[152SIC]

Thanks for the information!

 

[gunfyter]

Same applies to 135!

 

[152SIC]

Are you sure? I think that 135 is a bit different now that I have read about 91K. If so can you point me to the FAR which is appropriate?

Thanks in advance!

 

[gunfyter]

Yes I am sure.

http://www.law.emory.edu/1circuit/aug99/99-1888.01a.html

United States Court of Appeals​

For the First Circuit​

No. 99-1888​

AVIATORS FOR SAFE AND FAIRER REGULATION, INC.,​

Petitioner,​

v.​

FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION,​

Respondent.​

ON PETITION FOR REVIEW OF AN ORDER OF​

THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION​

Before

Selya, Boudin and Lynch,​

Circuit Judges.​

John M. Edwards with whom John C. Blessington and Kirkpatrick & Lockhart LLP were on brief for petitioner.​

Charles W. Scarborough, Appellate Staff, Civil Division, Department of Justice, with whom David W. Ogden, Acting Assistant Attorney General, and Robert S. Greenspan, Appellate Staff, Civil Division, Department of Justice, were on brief for respondent.​

BOUDIN, Circuit Judge. Petitioner, Aviators for Safe and Fairer Regulation, Inc. ("Aviators"), is a trade association of about fifty on-demand air charter companies. It brings this case to challenge a so-called notice of enforcement policy issued by the Federal Aviation Administration ("FAA") that purports to interpret, and to express its intent to enforce, a preexisting regulation governing how much rest pilots or other flight crewmembers must get between flight assignments.​

Air charter companies furnish "air taxi" service to customers on demand rather than on a scheduled basis. The FAA regulates such companies under Part 135 of its regulations, 14 C.F.R. pt. 135 (2000). The regulation at issue in this case, id. ? 135.267(d), was adopted in its current form in October 1985 and aims to ensure that pilots have adequate rest for purposes of air safety, see 49 U.S.C. ?? 40101(d), 44701(a)(4)-(5) (1994 & Supp. II 1996). It states, in relevant part, that each flight assignment to unscheduled one- and two-pilot crews "must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment." 14 C.F.R. ? 135.267(d).​

The term "rest" is not defined in the regulation. On several occasions, the FAA sought to refine the term through rulemaking but those efforts were abortive. (1) Then, on June 15, 1999, without prior notice or rulemaking proceedings, the FAA issued a "notice of enforcement policy." The notice said that it was merely reiterating the FAA's "longstanding interpretation of its regulations" concerning rest requirements and continued in pertinent part:​

[T]he FAA has consistently interpreted the term rest to mean that a flight crewmember is free from actual work from the air carrier or from present responsibility for work should the occasion arise. Thus the FAA previously has determined that a flight crewmember on reserve was not at rest if the flight crewmember had a present responsibility for work in that the flight crewmember had to be available for the carrier to notify of a flight assignment.​

If I were the Captain forced to resign... FLOPS would be hearing from my lawyer. Fired for not being able to contact a crewmember who was in Required 135/91K prospective Rest? I don't think so.