Tell 'em what they've won Bob!

[FL240]

Ok so this has been covered before....I'm just hoping someone will start the revolving fax machine up!


August 22, 2003
TURBO JET SIC PROGRAM (Turbojet Co-Pilots)
2634 Airport Drive, North Las Vegas
Tel: no calls
Fax: (702) 631-6380
Email: Click Here to Apply
Web Site: none
Turbo Jet First Officer Program - for those looking to gain real world, challenging experience. We are a growing charter and jet management company. SIC's will be paid $1000.00 per month plus expenses while on the road and will be considered for a permanent position upon completion. SIC's will be required to move to Las Vegas at their own expense. Applicants must have a Commercial, Instrument and Multi-Engine ratings and successfully complete a Jet Type Rating program at SimuFlite at their own expense. Applicants should expect to be on the road for extended periods of time.

Resumes and cover letters will be accepted by e-mail or fax only. NO PHONE CALLS.

One page flight resume with cover letter. When applying, ref: climbto350.com

 

[bobbysamd]

<Sigh>

Although it doesn't fit the strict definition of you-know-what, it is close enough to be called you-know-what.

You don't need to be "hired" by this outfit to buy a type rating. You can do that anytime.

What equipment do they fly? What if you're already typed in their equipment? Do you still have to attend SimuFlite? There are people who buy type ratings but don't have enough time in type to meet PIC insurance requirements.

Trust me on this one; the resume-cover letter request is basically window-dressing. They'll look to see if you have the certificates, call you, and ask if you're willing to pay. That's the basic qualifier for this "job." The sad thing is they will get plenty of "applicants."

Any guarantees on minimum hours per month? Probably not. You'll probably be sitting at home, on "reserve," much of the time. And how long are you bound to this outfit before it either really hires you or turns you loose? Will the job outlast your apartment lease? Probably not.

I'd stay away from this "job."

 

[ACWild]

Although it doesn't fit the strict definition of you-know-what, it is close enough to be called you-know-what.

Come on Bobby, say the words...

 

[bobbysamd]

If it looks, walks and quacks . . . .

They are three of the most-debated words on this forum.

 

[Eagleflip]

"fighter pilot handsome..." ????

 

[generaltso]

I think without a doubt, Bobby is the master debater of this board.

 

[StaySeated]

he said "master debater"

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

SIC's . . . . [must] successfully complete a Jet Type Rating program at SimuFlite at their own expense . . . .

I didn't think of this one before. Why must SICs complete a type rating program for this outfit?? The regs do not require that a second-in-command hold a type rating for aircraft for which the PIC must hold a type rating. 14 CFR 61.55.

This is totally bogus. P-F-T. There, I wrote it.

 

[B190Captain]

Re: P-F-T

I didn't think of this one before. Why must SICs complete a type rating program for this outfit?? The regs do not require that a second-in-command hold a type rating for aircraft for which the PIC must hold a type rating. 14 CFR 61.55.

This is totally bogus. P-F-T. There, I wrote it.

Then SWA is bogus?

 

[Buckatuna]

SWA=PFT?

Right on, big tits. I'm with you all the way.

SWA is as guilty as any other company who requires P-F-T. Before you start class you have to have a type rating- WTF? What is the difference between SWA's hiring practices and the job postings we've seen on this board?

Those on this board who wank about jobs that require a type rating, yet pine for SWA are being hypocritical.

Just curious as to the masses opinion

Buckatuna

 

[bobbysamd]

Southwest and "programs"

Southwest is different. You are getting a real, permanent position compared to this Las Vegas outfit. You do need the 737 type to get an interview (and be hired) at Southwest You also have to meet minimum time requirements, including mins for total time and PIC turbine time. Also, when you get there, you will go through initial training because you must under Part 121. Moreover, you might have already obtained a 737 type elsewhere for free, e.g. if you are a United furloughee.

I see this Las Vegas deal as being much different. No mention of minimum times. No mention of permanent employment upon completion of the program. Not only that, you have to go to a specific training provider. Read between the lines and you can see that it is P-F-T, all the way, and is intended for low-timers who cannot or will not build hours the conventional way:

Turbo Jet First Officer Program - for those looking to gain real world, challenging experience . . . . .

(emphasis added)

Any time I see an ad that says "program" and "gain experience," it tells me that it is something not intended for permanent employment.

Here's an example from Key Lime Air:

Take the big step toward your future in aviation.
Key Lime Air's goal is to provide you with the very best SIC training while maintaining an economical, professional and above all, a safe environment . . . . . Our short route structure equates to less straight and level flying providing you with more takeoffs, approaches, and landings per flight hour purchased.

(emphasis added)

Nothing here either about permanent employment.

See the difference? At least with Southwest you are being hired for a permanent position. You are definitely not at Key Lime and you are probably not in Las Vegas.

And the beat goes on . . . .

 

[B190Captain]

Re: Southwest and "programs"

See the difference? At least with Southwest you are being hired for a permanent position. You are definitely not at Key Lime and you are probably not in Las Vegas.

And the beat goes on . . . . [/B]

You tend to overlook that you are not hired for anything until YOU pay for a 737 Type rating.

SWA throws your resume in the garbage if you do not have a type.

Even if it was a while ago where you could get interviewed and hired without a type, you were given up to 6 months before your class date to get one AT YOUR EXPENSE .

If you did not get one, NO JOB.

I don't know about you but that sounds to me like PFT as a condition for employment.

 

[bobbysamd]

Southwest "P-F-T"

You tend to overlook that you are not hired for anything until YOU pay for a 737 Type rating.

I think the difference between Southwest and this Vegas "gig" is you are going for a real job as opposed to a temporary experience-gaining, flight-time purchase.

Plenty of legit, non-airline companies demand types and no one complains much. These companies also demand at least medium to high total time, medium to high multi, and time in type. No one gripes much about these requirements; in fact, many people who would otherwise be qualified use such things as WIA funds to buy types to get these jobs.

Comparing the Las Vegas job to SW is not valid. It is clear to me that the Vegas "job" is strictly for building "experience." You very well could be gone in a few months with no real PIC hours in their equipment, if any, at all, and have a bunch of debt after paying for the type rating.

By the way, that's quite the avatar you have, my friend!

PS-I like how you reworked your avatar!

 

[Timebuilder]

Bobby, that's a picture of the new FAA approved flotation device for over-water flights!

 

[KnowledgeSeeker]

I am confused... wouldn't southwest requiring a type be like most corporate flight departments. Don't most companies hiring pilots into a G-V expect that you are typed in the A/C? Doesn't seem very P-F-T to me...

 

[ellsworb]

Good point about SWA being like many other corporate departments. Also, SWA offers a number of scholarships each year to walk across the street from teh people center to get a type. All it takes is asking. Lets see a TRUE PFT do that for their applicants.

 

[Bake]

PPL, instrument, commercial, ATP, BFR's, checkrides with examiners. Didn't most of you pay for these? Isn't this training? I don't know but sounds to me like you are complaining about having to CONTINUE to pay for training. Hey, I don't blame you. I paid for all these too and then went to the military where they paid you (although, you pay for it with your life instead of your money). Look back on those things you paid for and all the money you invested in them, and figure out what those ratings have given you in return and I think you will find that the rate of return on your investment is horrible. Now look at the 737 type. 7300.00 dollars is what I paid, got hired by SWA and in one year my rate of return on the investment is incredible. This is the sensible way to look at it, WHAT IS THE RETURN ON THE INVESTMENT? But just like the market there is some risk, You might not get hired. That 7300 dollars is probably a drop in the bucket compared to what you have already paid, so it basically comes down to "IS IT WORTH THE RISK?". This LAS ad sounds like it has a horrible return on your investment.

I take a stand on many things, for instance I will not drink Miller Lite, ever, never will, for some reasons that I will not discuss. And if that is the way you feel about the type rating I can't help you or blame you for taking your stance on the issue. But I do ask you to look at the potential reward for making the investment, it really is incredible.

Bake

 

[bobbysamd]

Pay-for-training v. Pay-for-training

PPL, instrument, commercial, ATP, BFR's, checkrides with examiners. Didn't most of you pay for these? Isn't this training?

No, earning your initial certificates is not the same as P-F-T.

Unless someone will train you completely for free (I'm not counting military), everyone must remit payment in return for receiving training appropriate to their certificates. No matter what form it takes, it boils down to renting aircraft and paying instructor(s). It's the same as going to college or any other form of vocational training. The P-F-T controversy comes in when an employer requires as a condition of employment that you remit payment for its company training, with that training being esoteric and specific to that company. In other words, you don't earn a tangible credential from that training.

I realize this is a strict definition. I would say that the Las Vegas job that started this thread still would be P-F-T. Although you would get a type rating, the place is specifying where it must be earned and is specifying that you must earn the type to be "employed." Reread the ad and you will see why I put "employed" in parens. This is not a real job. It is a way for this company to establish itself without having to pay to train some of its pilots. The "pay" is nominal, and may not even be minimum wage. I question the veracity of the statement where P-F-T FOs will be considered for permanent employment. This "job" is not the same as Southwest. It is P-F-T in every way.

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

I just cant leave this one alone..Da#n my weak soul!!

They wont let you drive a car without a license that you have to pay for and sign over some of your basic rights..

They wont let you fly a C-152 unless you have a license that you paid for and signed over some of your basic rights..

They wont let you practice as an MD unless you get a license that you paid for and sign over some of your basic rights..

They wont let you work as a Microsoft tech unless you have paid to become Microsoft certified and sign over huge amounts of your personal rights..

The military will not let you fly an F-16 or F-18 unless you have a four year degree that you paid for,sign away major portions of your life,and make you give up most of your basic rights as a citizen...

They will not let you fly a Turbojet aircraft carrying passengers unless you have an ATP and all the flight training and flight time that you more than likely paid for major portions of in addition to giving up some of your basic rights..

Another way to look at it..

A guy early in his collage years decides that he wants to be an airline pilot..
He decides to let Uncle Sam teach him how to fly a 737 at the cost of 8 to 10 years of his life after paying for a four year degree..He gets out and gets a job with one of the Big Four and makes the big bucks up until he gets put on the street due to the next downturn..

The next guy works at flying all the "crappy" jobs picking up time along the way and buys himself a CFI,Multi,ATP, and over a period of 8 to 10 years gets to the point of being able to apply to the Big Four..All this, in many cases, after having paid for a four year degree with no idea of where or how he might get a job..

They both meet one day on the street..But thats another story..

The question that comes to my mind is this..

Why all of a sudden do we think that some one like SWA requiring a type rating in a 737 is a big deal?

Its not PFT..

Its a requirment for hiring..

Just like having to have the First class medical and the ATP with 1000 PIC jet..

They dont care how you got it or if you paid for it..

But..They wont hire you without it..

How is this different than all the majors requiring you to have a four year degree that..you guessed it..most of us had to pay for and none of us had a job offer?

You can try to split hairs all day in order to make your weak argument work against the SWA type requirment..

But...It never was..never will be..Anywhere near a PFT or a buy a job program..

And like it or not..We have ALL paid in some way ..at some point..to get into this profession..


Mike

 

[Timebuilder]

And like it or not..We have ALL paid in some way ..at some point..to get into this profession..

You're right. If we didn't have EZPass here on the east coast turnpikes, I might find myself dropping a live chicken into a basket in lieu of the change. Somehow, we pay for a lot of things.

I sometimes try to explain the difference between PFT and paying for instruction for basic certificates. Sometimes, I just don't have the patience. Bobby does a good job at making this clear, so if you have doubts, just read his posts again, and search for his answers and some of mine by using the search button. There's a lot of contention over this, but the basics are always the same.

PFT hardly ever leads to a real job. It's a "program" where you are building "expereince". In addition, you are displacing an otherwise qualified pilot who would have been paid, not paying for this position. Almost always, this is a commercial bottom feeder operator who is using this "program" to cut his costs of operation, hoping to take advantage of the inexpereinced and the uninitiated young pilots who are hot to trot for that 121 job, or turbine time, or the ability to say "I'm a professional pilot". What these kids don't know is that the title "professional" has many meanings beyond becoming a required crewmember for an air carrier.

But I digress. Use the search button, and don't PFT.

I now relinquish control of my soapbox to the next poster.

Good day.