Tech Q's....

[avbug]

Reduced power takeoff.

 

[FatesPawn]

Someone's teaching the private pilot bad information. Lift is greater than weight in a banked level turn. Lift is less than weight in a climb or descent. Lift is greater than weight in a level turn. An unloaded, descending turn, this isn't the case, and the values vary in a climbing turn, too.

No, I think Private pilots are being taught exactly what they need to know. Notice I didn't say ATP 303

Had I knew these were silly interview type questions, I would have put on my cypherin cap and posted some intricate scatter graphs to dazzle the crown imp:

... but I have to ask - and fear the retribution of flightinfo gods for my lack understanding - but how in the world is total lift less than weight during a straight descent? I just can't believe it....

-fate

 

[BEECH-SLAPPED]

... but I have to ask - and fear the retribution of flightinfo gods for my lack understanding - but how in the world is total lift less than weight during a straight descent? I just can't believe it....

If you reread my first post, it explains that in an unaccelerated climb or descent, lift only has to oppose the component of weight PERPENDICULAR to the flight path plus the tail-down force. That perpendicular component mathematically is:

WEIGHT * COS(ANGLE of CLIMB)

For example, a 100,000 aircraft with a 10 degree climb angle has a perpendicular weight component of 100,000 * COS(10) = 98481 lbs.

However, depending upon the CG location, the tail down force required may significantly add to the required lift. As a simple example, let assume that the CG for our ficticious aircraft is 5 feet forward of the center of lift. Also, lets assume that the center of aerodynamic force on the tail is 75 feet AFT of the center of lift. Balancing out the moments, this yields a tail-down force of 6565 lbs. So, the total lift required in this climb would be 98481 + 6565 = 105,046 lbs. That's over 5000 lbs more than the total weight of the aircraft!
So, in this case the lift required is GREATER than the weight of the aircraft.

Wil this always be the case? No, because these values drop off dramatically with an increased climb or descent angle. What is the perpendicular component of weight in a 90 degree climb? Zero! However, there are still aerodynamic moments produced by the wing that will have to be countered by the tail, so even in a straight up climb, there is some lift being produced.

So, I think that the main point here is not what the actual value of lift is compared to the weight, but how this value changes in climbs and descents for the same conditions. Our 100,000 lb aircraft will require MORE lift in straight and level flight at 200kts than the same 100,000 lb plane climbing at 200kts. Why? It's all in how the perpendicular weight component changes with angle of climb.

 

[avbug]

No need for ATP 303 to teach correct information.

Next thing you'll be telling us that ground effect is a cushion of air beneath the wing...

 

[FatesPawn]

Beech,

Thanks for clearing my question to avbug. I sincerely appreciate it. Good explanation.

-fate

... but I have to ask - and fear the retribution of flightinfo gods for my lack understanding -

No need for ATP 303 to teach correct information.

Next thing you'll be telling us that ground effect is a cushion of air beneath the wing...

Thanks. I thought it would take 2 or 3 posts for the retribution. Wrong again.

 

[avbug]

You elected to make the statement. If you didn't want a reply, particuarly one quoting your own words, then don't make the statement in the first place.

You find that basic aerodynamics are only for the advanced ATP...who usually doesn't seem to know the material either, then?

It's no wonder that students aren't getting taught enough today, if the attitude is that some of these things are just too advanced for them. Best yet, why teach even the basics...dumb it all down. No more terms like "elevators," or "ailerons." We'll just call them the flippy up and downy things on the ends of the wings. The explaination of lift can be replaced with PFM, and when we discuss ground effect, let's just say "you don't need to know that. It's enough to know that it just is."

Or would that be ATP 202?

 

[CA1900]

...dumb it all down. No more terms like "elevators," or "ailerons." We'll just call them the flippy up and downy things on the ends of the wings.

I had a student years ago who actually used the term "pedal thingys" while having a friendly chat with our local DPE. Uggggggh.



Minor thread derailment that has very little to do with the topic at hand. I think I've already told this story, but what the heck:

This student's father, a USAir pilot, wanted her to get done "over the summer," because Embry Riddle's training department was backed up, and they wanted her to have the private ahead of time. I made it clear that I never make time promises, but we'd make as much progress as we could, and I recommended scheduling at least four times a week.

Oh, boy... She got lost on both solo cross-country flights I sent her on (she missed Lake Okeechobee in Florida!), forgot how the VOR worked at the end of every lesson (apparently), and numerous other things (like "pedal thingies") that just told me she wasn't nearly ready. I don't send people to checkrides if they're not ready. The fact that she missed several of our appointments didn't help the ambitious schedule her father had set up in his mind.

She was a good enough stick, but just couldn't divide her attention between flying and everything else that goes along with being a pilot. (On one of our remedial cross-countries, I watched her keep waiting and waiting for a ground checkpoint that was only 5 miles past the previous one. After 10 minutes of total fixation, looking for a point that was now well behind us, I realized part of the problem.)

So daddy calls me up towards the end of the summer, wondering when the checkride would be scheduled. I was honest: at the rate we were progressing, she was at least another four to six weeks away. He went ballistic, accused me of "milking her," and cussed me out saying "you promised she'd be done by the end of the summer!"

"Ah, no, I specifically said I would not commit to a time frame, and for exactly this reason. Some people grasp it quicker than others, and she still has a lot of work to do before she'll be ready."

He hung up on me, and that was the last I heard from either one of them... or so I thought. The day before I'm about to leave for a week's vacation in December, I get a call from her out of the blue: "Hey, I'm in town for the week, and I want to finish up!"

Nothing like calling at the last minute, right before a holiday, and trying to book a bunch of time. I told her I was going to see my family the next day and would be gone for a week. Obviously she wasn't going to be in town for two weeks, so she asked if there was anyone else available.

Why, yes there is... the jackass instructor in the cubicle next to me, who never, ever took a single day off the whole time he was there, was more than happy to take her -- and anybody else whose instructor had the day off. :angryfire (I also overheard him telling one of his students, when I got hired at my airline job, that he "didn't consider flying a 1900 a real airline job," and that he was "holding out for a real opportunity." Karma being what she is, he ended up at Mesa -- flying a 1900! There is justice in the world.)


Anyway... he never asked for a briefing on this student or anything from me. He reviewed her logbook, flew with her three times and signed her off for the checkride.

She failed it with aplomb. :0


If there's only one thing in my life that I regret, it's not having a chance to say "I told ya so" to her father. He was like the grown-up version of a soccer dad, screaming at the coach! Kinda sad.

And thus ends my rant for the evening. imp:

 

[FatesPawn]

Or would that be ATP 202?

Thanks avbug. I learned something on this thread. Really. You weren't a help.

It's tough learning if you don't ask questions, but you don't seem interested in offering anything more than sarcasm, criticism and complaints about what "students are being taught today." I was only engaging in a conversation. See my smiley faces? Relax a little bit next time someone questions your statements. Perhaps next time you'll realize a question CAN be just a question sometimes.

-fate

 

[avbug]

Unlike you, I offered a full explaination to the questions asked. What don't you seem to understand? You felt that it was too much of an explaination, told us it was "ATP 303," too much for the average pilot.

In fact, your contribution here has been...

Had I knew these were silly interview type questions, I would have put on my cypherin cap and posted some intricate scatter graphs to dazzle the crown imp:

Well, then, dazzle us, brightspark. When you're done learning private pilot 101, that is.

 

[FatesPawn]

Well, then, dazzle us, brightspark. When you're done learning private pilot 101, that is.

You are continually demeaning. It's senseless to continue.

My comments you quoted were obviously in jest, but you seem to be too rigid in your thinking to see that.

My point was, that I KNOW I didn't offer a full explanation. Had I known ASH was looking for INTERVIEW answers, I'd have kept my distance. Like I said, I was just "taking a stab" at things. I'm sure He'll do well with your expert tutelage.

So, are we done here, or what?

-fate

 

[avbug]

So, are we done here, or what?

Not so long as you keep replying, we're not.

You're staying away from the questions because they're interview questions, then? How did you make it to be a 7,000 hour SWA F/O? Faked your way in, or got a pass for heart covered underwear? Perhaps this was your answer in the interview...

So, the correct interview answer to "During what phase of flight is lift the greatest" is:

The phase where the stew brings me my cocktail.

Probably your favorite phase of flight, but that wasn't really the question now, was it?

Of course, one who isn't pretending to fly or an airline would have said "flight attendant," but we can let that pass. You're still struggling on private pilot 101, so knowing the basic terminology of the job you're pretending to do should come later.

See my smiley faces?

No. Have you any?

If it's an interview answer, just say type 1 then type 4 to get re-deiced. When they question you further, your dazzle them with your Flightinfo level of understanding of their new question.

Unfortunately, he won't be able to use your "crown dazzling" answers, as you weren't able to provide any. Presumably these comments are fair game, as you didn't include your smiley faces with them to show us you were only kidding.

I would assume that Vmcg is always lower than Vmca because the friction of the tires would aid in directional control... Would I be wrong?

Why, yes! You would be wrong. But at least you're consistant. And next to the drunkard russian, quite possibly the cheapest entertainment going on the board, right now. No smiley faces again.

 

[FatesPawn]

So we're done then. Got it. Thanks.