Teaching students to HOLD ALTITUDE?

[BoDEAN]

Any teaching techniques or excercises I can use to get 2 of my students to do a better job at holding and maintaining their altitudes? Two of them can't hold altitude at all, and climb/descend 500-1000 ft without even correcting.

 

[AxisVDP]

I'm not sure how qualified I am to answer this, but I don't really have a problem holding altitude and this is how I learned: 1. Develop a mental picture of what the horizon looks like in relation to the nose of the aircraft. 2. Trim the aircraft so that you don't have to apply constant pressure on the yoke. 3. Don't ever let yourself slip more than 10 degrees off course or more than 100 feet in any direction. 4. Go under the hood and maintain straight and level flight.

When I fly, I always glance at the coordinated turn indicator, airspeed indicator, altimeter, and the artificial horizon. Occasionally, I'll check the VSI during cruise, and all of the engine instruments.

Basically, I've been taught to fly with precision, and I always strive to be where I'm supposed to be. Again, take my answers with a grain of salt because of my limited experience.

See ya,
Karl

 

[Visceral]

I'll just assume these aren't instrument students. I have used the integrated method with good results. I make sure they use the cowl and its relation to the horizon as the primary reference for climbs and descents backed up by the instruments. I also will regularly have them take their hands off the yoke to show them how they've been flying (either in trim or not). Next few flights, they are doing it on their own. Wonderful.

 

[marsmelo]

I had TONS of trouble holding my altitude. What really worked for me and STILL took me some time was the 'ol pencil trick, or pen. My instructor had me "weave" my fingers around a pencil ( You know the index finger on one side, the middle finger on the other side, etc.) in my left hand. This caused me to work on my trim, which was a problem AND work on my NOT doing the "death grip" on the yoke. I had a great tendency as things got busy, to push on theyolk, up or down... My instructor then told me not to go more than 10 ft either way. We just flew around and I practiced this for quite a while. We did turns and straight and level, climbs and descents. Then each flight after I had to fly with the pencil, till I got it right. I got bruises on my fingers, but it taught me to hold my altitude. This is after I had been told about scanning and visual pictures with the cowl, or in my case, the dash... which didn't seem to help me at all. I had trouble all through my private and it wasn't until my instrument that someone stopped and worked on this problem... Believe me I was greatful. It's very frustrating for the student as well.
Just another idea... Good luck!

 

[350DRIVER]

Sometimes the smallest things seem to make the largest amount of difference. Whenever you see that they are loosing a large amount of altitude I would ask for the flight controls and show them how one can maintain altitude/heading my using just two fingers. When you transfer the controls back to the student make sure one hand is on throttle, other one should be on yoke. This way the student does not have the urge to over fly the aircraft. If the student has the aircraft trimmed right then they should not be loosing the mentioned altitudes. This usually will not continue very far into the training program, sometimes it just takes some time for the student to be in his/her comfort zone and be able to multi-task. When I was instructing I was not overly concerned about this issue for the first ten hours or so, it will come in time and become second nature once they have achieved their comfort zone. If this would be a instrument student then obviously you would need to evaluate "why" this problem is still occuring. He!! even the best still get off +/- 20 ft of an assigned altitude every now and then.

I would excerise patience until the comfort factor has kicked in, after that point if the problems are still existing then you may want to work on a solution to help them overcome this. A few lessons on a simulator may be the answer as well as having them "dry fly" the aircraft. Prior to any stage checks that I would do I made sure that there instructors would have them dry fly the aircraft on the ground and go through everything that I would be looking for. This always seemed to make a difference, even with the more "difficult" students that I came in contact with.


Spending time with them on the ground was always a key element when it came to getting them to where I wanted them to be. Sometimes it is the smallest of things that seem to make a world of difference. Maximize your instruction time with them and at the same time minimize the time that is wasted by things that could have been accomplished on the ground.

Some portions of the learning curve however could be expected. If I was a betting man I would wager that in another 5-10 hours this will no longer be an issue.

good luck

3 5 0

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

I usually teach w/o using the altimeter, at least for the first flight or two. I tell students to hold the horizon 1/3 of the way up the windshield and repeat this a number of times on their first flight. Once this visual reference is ingrained(law of primacy), after about three hours of flight time, I begin having them look at the altimeter as a reference. I wouldn't think trim is the problem for someone not holding altitude by +/-500 to 1,000 feet or so.

I also review this method on the ground prior to the first flight. Just my $.02.


Mr. I.

 

[bobbysamd]

Holding altitude

I wonder if your students have their heads inside the cockpit and are chasing needles as opposed to using outside references. Try to figure out where they're looking. They might be chasing the altimeter. Take control and talk up the outside picture that they should be seeing. I wouldn't quantify it too much because the picture looks a little different to each individual. Explain that it looks like "this."

While doing this demonstration, cover up the instruments. Then uncover them and show how you were able to hold altitude very closely without having to chase the altimeter. Then, have them try it. As they get better, you can have them work the instruments back in their scan for finer control.

While we're on the subject of covering up instruments, as your students approach solo cover up the instruments during pattern work, even during the climb to TPA. They will be surprised at how closely they level off at TPA without needing the altimeter, and how well they hold reference speed by using attitudes and not depending on the ASI. If they ask why, you can explain, plausibly, that they can never know when a wasp might clog the pitot. Aside from that, the real reason is they should be able to fly an entire pattern accurately by outside refs only.

Hope that helps some more.

 

[bugchaser]

I have often had the same problems with students. It seems that often it is caused by the students fixating on the altimeter and chasing the needles. Often if the altimeter is covered up and the aircraft is flown only by outside reference, the student will do a much better job. The correct procedure is to have the student learn the proper pitch attitude by outside reference and then checking the instruments to verify. Once they get the proper sight picture for each phase of flight, they will have a much easier time. At least thats the way it works for me.

 

[nosehair]

"Chasing the needles", see, that's the phrase everyone uses for the student's attempt at using the instruments, as is required/recommended in the initial introduction to learning to fly, called the "integrated method"...it's only been aroud for forty years or so, but I see there are still die-hards who make their students not use the instruments to enhance and improve their visual skills.
No, I don't mean teach them to fly with their head in the cockpit. I do mean to allow them the time it takes to find, see, read, understand and interpet the needle movement and relate it to an outside visual reference and make a control movement to correct it. Including an instrument or two in the visual scan is a skill which is best developed in the initial stage of training.
At first, it will take having your eyes glued to the needle you are trying top learn to control so that it is not chasing, but positive command and control of the instrument, and learning to make the glance/interpret/control movement as quick-as-the-eye, and back outside to reinforce and use all available information. Just like I think it is good to cover up the instruments to learn the outside visual cues, it is good to cover up the outside and learn the instrument cues, and then learn to combine them both in a scan that includes all.

 

[marsmelo]

Did you ever think that these students weren't "looking" at the needles in the first place? Maybe that's why they weren't correcting and getting so far off alt. The idea of not interpreting the instruments sounds more like an idea. You look at them, but never really "SEE" what you are looking at, let alone do anything about it, at least in the beginning...

Again stictly from a student perspective w/out knowing any of the teaching ideas and how they correlate. So take it w/ a grain of salt.

 

[52Vincent]

Try the grease pencil technique
Hold the plane straight and level, place a mark on the wind screen in front of them in reference to the horizon or whatever they prefer, tell them to keep the mark at the reference. Works real well with minor adjustments of course.
You can even use this technique in 30 deg. bank turns. Enter a turn to the left maintaining altitude and place a mark on the wind screen in front of you on your side ( somewhere near top right). Have them hold that position on the horizon.This technique helps them keep their eyes outside the aircraft and start understanding the attitude of the aircraft to hold altitude in straight and level and turns.

Hope this helps. Good Luck!!

 

[TonyC]

I had TONS of trouble holding my altitude. What really worked for me and STILL took me some time was the 'ol pencil trick, or pen. My instructor had me "weave" my fingers around a pencil ( You know the index finger on one side, the middle finger on the other side, etc.) in my left hand. This caused me to work on my trim, which was a problem AND work on my NOT doing the "death grip" on the yoke.

I used this with a Basic Instrument student back in my USAF Tweet days. The kid snapped a mechanical pencil in half.

OUCH!

 

[Jmmccutc]

Personally i have an "over control" problem...it took me about 90-110 hours to get that whole concept of "trimming off the pressure" i just couldn't feel it...no i've finished my instrument training and as stated earlier being under the hood, and also the fact that you MUST hold a give altitude aid in your learning process...somethimes its not someting you can corrrect easily as the CFI, it might just have to be "felt out" over time...it will get better...

also how much time do your students have (rough estimate is good enough)? i wouldn't worry about this too much if the student is under 25 hours...at that point they should be able to FLY the airplane and after that is when they learn to PILOT the aircraft...

 

[cubpilot]

Anyone off altitude by 500’ or more is not pay attention.

A couple of pointers anyway:

Many times poor altitude control results from poor leveling procedures. One common error is resetting climb power to a cruise set immediately upon arriving at the desired altitude. A good level off procedure would begin with a pitch change as desired altitude is reached then wait until airspeed accelerates to cruise, ballpark trim, then set cruise power, then finale trim. The excess thrust used to climb is also used to accelerate. With the nose lowered to the final cruise attitude and speed still near climb airspeed, altitude will be lost while the airplane accelerates, then the pilot pitches up to regain altitude and losses airspeed. This cycle can continue indefinitely and makes altitude hold very difficult. A similar situation occurs when leveling from a decent.

Slightly different techniques are called for each of the following. Leveling from climb with different climb and cruise speeds, Leveling from climb with the same climb and cruise speeds, leveling from decent with change in speed, and leveling from decent with speed change.

The integrated flight training system developed in the early 1960s actually call for each maneuver (straight & level, level turns, etc) to be taught with VR (visual reference) and IR ( instrument reference). After both are mastered individually the student is expected, to be able to perform when both references are available at the same time.

Notes about trim. Remember to tell your student to fly with the yoke control and relive pressures with trim. ie change attitude with the yoke hold altitude with the yoke and trim the work away with the trim wheel. Don’t fly a normally functioning airplane with the trim wheel. ie do not trim for altitude, trim for zero stick force.
Although it may be advisable sometimes to ballpark the trim during transitions, final trim cannot be made until airspeed is stabilized.

 

[TonyC]

Notes about trim. Remember to tell your student to fly with the yoke control and relive pressures with trim. ie change attitude with the yoke hold altitude with the yoke and trim the work away with the trim wheel. Don’t fly a normally functioning airplane with the trim wheel. ie do not trim for altitude, trim for zero stick force.
Although it may be advisable sometimes to ballpark the trim during transitions, final trim cannot be made until airspeed is stabilized.

I feel a "PITCH/POWER" debate coming on.

 

[KigAir]

Electric Cattle Prod coupled to the altimeter?

 

[IP076]

The following work for a C172SP at about 7500' and std temp.

1. VERT IMPORTANT!! and probably least emphasized. Teach student how to adjust seat height so that the seat is the same position every time. I would set the seat so that my eye level is the same as the upper edge of the side window.

2 Cover all flight instruments

3. You fly: Set a level Attitude at Cruise Power Setting
Cessna 172SP at 7500' about 2300 RPM. Horizon should be about 2.5 to 3" above dash. This will yield about 90 kias.\

4. Student Flies: Have student describe what he is looking at. How he can tell the horizon hasn't moved. ie, horizon is at the top of the mag compass. Tell student to keep the attitude (Distance between dash and horizon) the same. The point where the horizon is, straight infront of the student, will be referred to as the "Reference Point"

5. You fly. Increase the aircraft attitude, and then start decreasing the attitude. Have the student tell you when to stop in order to maintain altitude. Repeat Until student can do this repeatedly without error. Should not take more than a few moments.

6. Instruct the student to look at a point on the horizon 45 degrees to the right. Now, have him describe where the horizon is while you fly the aircraft in the level attitude. Change the attitude, have him tell you when you are back to level. He can verify this by looking back at the reference point straight in front of him.

Repeat process for a point about 45 degrees left, and then another point about 80 to 90 right and left. This will allow the student to know the level attitude picture while looking any direction forward of the airplane (ie, visual scanning, vfr??, traffic avoidance?)

This same concept can be used for any pitch and power settings, ie, climb, descent, cruise climb. Also, the same theory can be used for setting bank angles.

Only reference the flight instruments after the student can do all the desired pitch/power/bank combinations with only outside reference. For every minute, you should spend no more than about 6 to 10 seconds inside. I ensure my students can do every manuever in the Private PTS within standards, with the 6pack covered. The only instrument you need is the tachometer. (And, with a fixed pitch prop and a little practice, you can do it without that.) Remember, the PTS standards are for evaluation. I don't want my students worried about 100 feet or 10 knots, because then they spend too much time staring at the instruments and don't learn what the manuever is really about.

Now, its been a little while since I did this, I've got a word doc somewhere with a Control/Performance checklist for flight instruction I got from an AirForce IP. If anyone is interested, I can try to find it.

Pitch/Power debate? Oh no, might as well settle the Chicken/Egg scenario while we're at it!! Ask a Navy pilot, pitch controls Airspeed, ask an Air Force Pilot and power controls airspeed.

 

[mudkow60]

My flight instructor in the Navy took me down to about 200 feet above the trees and told me to hold altitude. It was probably more like 100 feet, but it worked. I did not descend at all, and he wacked the stick when I started to climb.

 

[cubpilot]

I use the low altitude method all summer long. With a Piper Cub on floats you don’t have to be in the Navy to be legal and safe at 15 feet.

Not that being in the Navy is bad, it’s a real good thing, but some of us don’t qualify for that.

 

[nosehair]

Yep, low altitude works real good, too. I have students do steep turns at 500 feet - works every time. Remember that the 1500 foot minimum number is from the PTS and applies only to the actual Practical Test. Flying 500' AGL in a safe, level, non-inhabited area works really good for a lot of control problems in new students. The higher you get, the more foriegn the environment is. The new student cannot "see" the horizon or ground details as easily.

 

[flyifrvfr]

Any teaching techniques or excercises I can use to get 2 of my students to do a better job at holding and maintaining their altitudes? Two of them can't hold altitude at all, and climb/descend 500-1000 ft without even correcting.

I would suggest telling your student to level off and reduce power to cruise.Trim away forward pressure,and hold thier hand up on top of the instrument panel palm facing the student.Using thier open hand fold the thumb over so you are looking at only four fingers and palm.Place the horizon on the top of the index finger and viola!

 

[cargodawg]

In my opinion first look to see if they try to fly with both hands/ or the classic death grip. They only need 2 fingers and a thumb. Honest. Then cover most or their instruments and make them look outside do this for a couple of lessons. After and only after they have it try and have them maintain alt. as they focus inside the plane (don't use the hood yet they will learn to use their Perf. vision) then put it all together. Also like many have said fly the plane and trim away the pressures. If they fly with only 2 fingers and a thumb they will feel the pressures. Happy instructing.

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
I've found that the best way to teach any part of basic airmanship is to fly the airplane totally by visual reference. I usually cover the attitude indicator on the second dual and leave it covered until they can accurately fly by looking outside. I am also really big on "see and avoid". Getting them to look ahead of the direction of the turn vice staring straight ahead. Same goes for stalls and slow-flight. All the airwork maneuvers should be done by complete visual reference. And only occasionally cross-checking the instruments to make sure the correct parameters are maintained.

Regards,

ex-Navy rotorhead

 

[BoDEAN]

Thanks guys
When I cover the instruments, they do a hella a lot times better!

 

[Cat Driver]

Generally these problems result from the student not completely understanding attitudes and movements.

Generally the reason for that is the instructor does not ensure that these basics were actually absorbed and understood by the student.

And the second biggest impediment to smooth accurate visual flying is unnecessary reference to the flight instruments.

Cat Driver:

 

[Timebuilder]

I always made a point of telling the student that any change will first be seen in the windshield before it registers on any instrument. Really helped a couple of them to not porpoise around the traffic pattern.

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
Timebuilder is right on the money with his comments. It's all about relative motion, and being able to visually percieve changes in aircraft attitude and how they affect aircraft performance. I teach my students to early on to rely very little on the instruments, yet still use the integrated instruction method of cross-checking the instruments occasionally for desired parameters.
One thing that also helps, is to use the aiming points (if at an airport with them) to guide the airplane consistently to the same spot on the runway. If you hold the aiming point in your field of view and it neither rises or falls. You will always arrive there. The trick of course is maintaing the correct speeds, configuring at the right time and coordinating pitch and power to hold that desired flight path. It is a very intuitive method and really forces the student to be looking outside in addition to cross-checking the instruments, watching for traffice, communicating, etc...

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[flyingwildfires]

Bath Towel

Cover the instrument panel with a bath towel and let the outside references really sink in... I would get other CFIs' students who were "having trouble" and that seemed to be the most direct line to picturing their attitude, placing the airplane where they wanted it, then (lastly) checking instruments to confirm the results. It didn't take long, and worked with everyone. Plus, their confidence was incredibly reinforced when they would peek behind the towel to see they were right on altitude, etc.