Taxing jets single pilot

[Tonto]

Does anyone know if taxing a jet single pilot to repostition on the airport in an aircraft the requires two pilots for flight is legal? I know mechanics taxi airplanes on the airport, so I don't see this as being a violation against any FARs.
Any thoughts?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Does anyone know if taxing a jet single pilot to repostition on the airport in an aircraft the requires two pilots for flight is legal? I know mechanics taxi airplanes on the airport, so I don't see this as being a violation against any FARs.
Any thoughts?

My first thought was, No. If it requires two pilots to fly it needs two to taxi. However given the fact that mechanics normally are not rated in what they taxi around........I guess it would probably depend on the op specs. No idea how it is looked at outside of 135 or 121.

Any mechanics out there?

 

[Lead Sled]

My first thought was, No. If it requires two pilots to fly it needs two to taxi. However given the fact that mechanics normally are not rated in what they taxi around...

Sounds good to me. However, you'd probably have a lot of 'splaining to do if you happened to catch a wingtip on your blindside. Personally, I've always found some "warm body" (pilot) willing to sit in the seat if it had to be moved and the other guy wasn't available.

'Sled

 

[transpac]

The only applicable regulation is 91.13(b) which applies to careless or reckless operation not involving intent for flight. The only time it's going to come into play in regard to this issue is if someone has a taxiing incident that could have reasonably been prevented by a second set of eyes, hands, or feet. The feds will probably object to someone taxiing a large aircraft without a lookout in the co-pilot seat, but it's a non-issue on small and medium jets.

 

[minimums]

Don't mechanics have a taxi waiver or something similiar for taxiing to the run-up pad?

 

[Tonto]

91.5 says no person may operate an aircraft that is type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember.

General definitions page 1-8 defines "operate" as with respect to aircraft, means use for the purpose of air navigation including the piloting of aircraft. (except as provided in 91.13)

91.13 Talks of careless and reckless and has two sections. One for operations for the purpose of air navigation and one for operation other than for the purpose of air navigation.

As I understand it, taxi to reposition is not for the purpose of air navigation and there for the aircraft is not being "operated" and 91.5 does not have to be met.

I know that the feds can always get you on any careless and reckless, but I just wanted to know if it is against any FARs. I don't see that it does.
Thanks for the input.

 

[LR25]

As a mechanic I used to taxi DC-8's with just me up front and another on the engineer panel.

No biggy, if I needed an eyeball on the other side the person on the panel would come up and check it out.

Someone could also ride in the right seat after engine start and monitor the panel from the right seat also.

Idealy I would want 3 up front, but almost always that wasnt the case.

You do what you have to do when short handed.

As far as being qualified, each airline has training for MX people to operate the airplane, and have to go through recurrent training to keep your status

 

[avbug]

For surface operation, no pilot certificate is required. Accordingly, if no pilot certificate is required, then two pilots do not need to be aboard. Operating as a student pilot, mechanic, or as joe blow with only taxi training and nothing else, one may move from A to B. One need not have on one's person a medical certificate, pilot certificate, drivers license, dominos pizza card, or even a library card.

I encountered a humerous interlude between a pilot in a private airplane some years ago, and a FAA inspector. The inspector saw the individual taxi up wearing only thongs (footwear) and shorts, and proceeded to engage in a ramp check. the inspector was upset at the lack of ID, and complained about the pilot's apparel. The pilot said he wasn't aware he needed ID, or that a pilot certificate was required...the air is free to breathe after all, isn't it?

He had a go at the inspector for a while before he allowed that he was indeed a certificated pilot who had been washing his airplane (a T-6, if I recall), and had never operated it with the intention of flight. He needed no certificate or ID. The inspector left in a red faced huff.

I've often operated large crewed airplanes alone, and legally so. Not a big deal at all.

Some companies have mandates as to the number of personnel requried for taxi or ground operations, including wing walkers for maintenance functions. One little ding can cost a whole lot more than many, many hours of wing walking overtime.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I encountered a humerous interlude between a pilot in a private airplane some years ago, and a FAA inspector. The inspector saw the individual taxi up wearing only thongs (footwear) and shorts, and proceeded to engage in a ramp check. the inspector was upset at the lack of ID, and complained about the pilot's apparel. The pilot said he wasn't aware he needed ID, or that a pilot certificate was required...the air is free to breathe after all, isn't it?

He had a go at the inspector for a while before he allowed that he was indeed a certificated pilot who had been washing his airplane (a T-6, if I recall), and had never operated it with the intention of flight. He needed no certificate or ID. The inspector left in a red faced huff.

I read an AOPA, or maybe ALPA article about a very similar story. Sounds almost identical. Anyhow in the version I saw, the fed had the guys certs. revoked a day or so after the encounter. He got them back after an extended legal battle, but it took a year or so. Wonder if it is the same guy?

 

[Tonto]

Avbug,

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the experience and the humor. In my situation we operate a Lear and where drop off our pax is not near the aircraft's hangar, so either I or the copilot taxi it over by ourselves. I didn't think anything of it, but just wanted to ask around. Thanks again.

 

[JAFI]

We sometimes get into discussions about if something is legal but maybe not that smart. In Avbugs story a pilot was washing his aircraft (a T-6) and taxied wearing sandles as foot wear (maybe wet from the washing) and approached by an Inspector. Was wearing (maybe wet) sandles the best foot wear in this case? Legal but maybe not wise. The T-6 is not that "light" an aircraft if that is even germaine to the discussion. Now none of us were there so "maybe" some urban legand has been added for "color" to the story.

Let me add a story that I was involved in. I got a call from a Chief Pilot asking when the Violation Letter was going to arrive. I asked "what letter?" There was silence on the phone. Now the CP's quandry, does he drop the subject so not to remind me of something I forgot, get it out in the open and be done with it, or what? I say "what are you talking about." So the CP starts telling me a story from two weeks prior when I did a ramp check. I was being shown a, new to the company, aircraft and the pilot did something which caused me to ask "Is that wise"? I was thinking about the procedure in a manual that I had not had a chance to look at yet, but from other aircraft it was not done that way. I told the pilot I would look that up and get back to him. Some how the story got from "Is that wise" to a Violation in less than two weeks. No violation but it did remind me to look at the manual. I wonder if this becomes urban legend will I be wearing a 20 year old ill fitting polyster suit, miss matched socks, or just be red in the face as I storm away. But as the newspaper people say "never let the truth get in the way of a good story".

As for the first post question, there is not requirement to be a pilot to taxi an aircraft. Mechanics do it all the time. As for Careless and reckless, that depends on if it is basic ramp/hanager rash or attempting to do donuts in the snow.

JAFI

 

[avbug]

The incident to which I refer is doubtless not what was read in an article somewhere, and the pilot was not violated or the subject of enforcement action.

Most assuredly the inspector was red faced and upset when he left.

And yes, I've seen an inspector on the ramp screaming at the top of his lungs, throwing things, waving his fists in the air, and a purple color that had me quite concerned. In that particular instance, I later learned that he'd been physically knocked to the ramp by pilots on two separate occasions because of his behavior; he was transferred to Texas shortly after that occurence. As far as I know, he's still employed by the FAA. No urban legend of course; I was there.

So far as his actions, I spent the next year fighting the paperwork he submitted, and two years after that with the letter of investigation and the warning letter in my file...a letter which I still have which arrived from the regional counsel. It merely states that the FAA could find no evidence of wrong doing, and to be more careful in future, lest I experience enforcement action.

That particular inspector called me at home at ten o clock at night, making threats...he wasn't satisfied with what went on at the airport on the flightline, in full view of a LOT of whitnesses. He told me that he might have let the matter go, but that as I had included him and named him and cited his actions in my report, he was going to destroy my career and "nail you to the wall."

I don't recall if his socks matched, but I highly doubt they did.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

The one I read had something to do with a guy taxiing a T-6 or similar, maybe a t-28 after washing, he was asked for his certs. and "apparantly" he had left his certs. in his jeep accordong to the FAA. His story was that he went to his jeep for a tape recorder to document the conversation, FAA claimed he went to his car to get his certs. (claiming he was operating without his certs. on him), inspector was mad, words exchanged etc. Do not know about the urban legand part, I do know that it was a story about the legal side of things so I am inclined to think that it was not a legend.

Anyhow, I am pretty sure that flip flops were involved!

 

[Lead Sled]

I wonder if this becomes urban legend will I be wearing a 20 year old ill fitting polyster suit, miss matched socks, or just be red in the face as I storm away?

The way I heard the story was that you also had a bad hair piece.

'Sled

 

[A Squared]

The one I read had something to do with a guy taxiing a T-6 or similar, maybe a t-28 after washing, he was asked for his certs. and "apparantly" he had left his certs. in his jeep accordong to the FAA. His story was that he went to his jeep for a tape recorder to document the conversation, FAA claimed he went to his car to get his certs. (claiming he was operating without his certs. on him), inspector was mad, words exchanged etc. Do not know about the urban legand part, I do know that it was a story about the legal side of things so I am inclined to think that it was not a legend. Anyhow, I am pretty sure that flip flops were involved!

I think you may be mixing up two stories. I've heard the bit about the pilot and the recorder. It the risk of adding another layer of half truths, Here's what I recall reading:

The pilot in question was Delmar Benjamin, the airshow performer with the Gee Bee replica. He was taxiing in from a flight (not just taxiing) and was met by an inspector. He immediately went to his vehicle and then returned to the inspector. I recall the rest like you say, his story was that he was getting a recorder so he would have a tape of hte ramp check, the inspector claimed he was getting his pilot certificate from his vehicle. I don't recall if flip flops were involved.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I think you may be mixing up two stories. I've heard the bit about the pilot and the recorder. It the risk of adding another layer of half truths, Here's what I recall reading:

The pilot in question was Delmar Benjamin, the airshow performer with the Gee Bee replica. He was taxiing in from a flight (not just taxiing) and was met by an inspector. He immediately went to his vehicle and then returned to the inspector. I recall the rest like you say, his story was that he was getting a recorder so he would have a tape of hte ramp check, the inspector claimed he was getting his pilot certificate from his vehicle. I don't recall if flip flops were involved.

Your story seems more plausible than mine, At least you have a name to go with it!! I just have a pair of flip flops!! I like flip flops.

 

[A Squared]

I just have a pair of flip flops!! I like flip flops.

Flip flops are good ... thongs are even better.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Flip flops are good ... thongs are even better.

Are we still talking about shoe? If we moved into womens wear.....then I agree 100% Thongs rule!!!

 

[JAFI]

Several points I like to comment on.

Lead, thanks, I forgot about the bad hair piece.



The story about the flip flops/taxi/tape recorder etc. seems to be one/several/ and or a composite story. I'm not sure which version I can comment on.



As to unprofessional behavior, IMHO it is never called for. I include Inspectors and Airman in my comment. Red faced yelling is just being out of control if not plain poor taste where threats and harassment are actionable no mater who does it. The behavior is on both sides of the table.

I have been screamed at (in at least two languages and maybe three, sometimes it is hard to tell), suggested I do imposable sexual acts to my self, well you get the picture. And that is after I just said good morning. I have had cigarette butts put out on my personal car, heard of g-cars with tires slashed, keyed paint, dents and even visited a FSDO where the Inspector used a mirror on a stick to look at the bottom of the car prior to opening the door. What a wonderful world we live in. The old saying "you can pick your friends but not your relatives" should also include "your co-workers" and "some of the public."

I can only defend how I act.

JAFI

 

[iflyabeech]

lawnmower

If you stay on the ground, you need the same license you would need to drive a lawnmower.