Taws/egpws

[cvsfly]

Starting to get serious about upgrading our B200 to the new requirement. Have to educate the boss first. It appears the Honeywell MK V would be the system for our plane. We just got the AFM Supplement for it and from Honeywell's website www.egpws.com it seams like this is the model that would be compatible with our UNS1-M and the Collins EFIS 85B. Any other options? And what facilities are available. I know Elliott Aviation has the STC. Any others? In Southeast? What are the costs, downtime? Any wait lists? If we want it installed at end of 2003, what would be the preferred course of action. If the boss were to decide to sell the aircraft before 2005, would the resale price reflect the investment of the TAWS (i.e. would we get the full investment cost out of it)?

 

[ultrarunner]

It it were me, I would investigate the Universal TAWS solution. BECAUSE you already have the UNS box. If you combined the Universal TAWS and displayed it on the Universal MFD-640, I think you would have a much better solution, and you would also have the 3-D TAWS. In addition, the MFD I mentioned is compatible with a number of existing Radar RT units, and will also display TCAS and Stormscope information, as well as interfacing very nicely with your UNS-1M.


This is likely the solution we're going with in our Falcon 10.

When practical and cost effective, I thinks it's a better soloution to stick with one manufacture when you want boxes to communicate effectively with each other, as it's designed that way from the start, as opposed to "having to MAKE it work".

The are two other outfits, in addition to Elliott that you need to get solution information from:

Duncan Aviation and Electrosonics.

The latter is a division of Garrett Aviation, and you can get to their website from Garrett's main home page.

Let me know if I can be of any more help. I've researched this quite a bit.

 

[bin LAAidoff]

Like the man said...stick to Universal if your sticking to your Universal FMS.

We've got Dual UNS1D's, and it is a royal pain to connect them to anything. There are about 7 different "adapter" kits, provided by third parties in our aircraft. Good luck when the integration doesnt work right. Integrator, Universal, Shadin, Boeing and TAWS people point at eachother when something doesnt work. Just like calling Microsoft when your WordPerfect doesnt seem to work right. Eventually it gets worked out, but it takes a while, and involves lots of extra parts and hidden costs.

Dont get me wrong, Universal makes a great FMS. We're looking at Universal TAWS and their Vision product. Universal presently has the best, and IMHO, the only viable paperless electronic approach plate on the market.

 

[enigma]

Dittos on keeping your avionics all in the same family. I can't speak to the specifics of the installation/installers, etc, but I can tell you that the Universal TAWS is a beautiful thing.

regards,
8N

One more thing, There is a lawsuit pending between the TAWS/EGPWS manufacturers. Make sure you check on that before you buy.

 

[cvsfly]

I thought it was Honeywell who was doing all the lawsuits against everyone else. With the recent AFM Supplement for the Honeywell installation I would think that would put Honeywell in the running first. Has anyone had compatibility problems between their displays (MFD), RAs, FMSs, and the EGPWS unit? I would think that since Honeywell claims that their unit is compatible with our existing EFIS (Collins)- MFD display, that would be 1 less hardware component to replace - more cost effective. I wouldn't think simply pulling from the FMS data base would cause too much compatibility problems. If we did go the Universal route (Universal MFD display), then would we have potential compatibility problems with rest of our EFIS (3 Tube Collins 85B)? Has anyone with late model (EFIS equipped) King Airs looked into this yet?

 

[cvsfly]

Any other response?

 

[ultrarunner]

I thought it was Honeywell who was doing all the lawsuits against everyone else. With the recent AFM Supplement for the Honeywell installation I would think that would put Honeywell in the running first. Has anyone had compatibility problems between their displays (MFD), RAs, FMSs, and the EGPWS unit? I would think that since Honeywell claims that their unit is compatible with our existing EFIS (Collins)- MFD display, that would be 1 less hardware component to replace - more cost effective. I wouldn't think simply pulling from the FMS data base would cause too much compatibility problems. If we did go the Universal route (Universal MFD display), then would we have potential compatibility problems with rest of our EFIS (3 Tube Collins 85B)? Has anyone with late model (EFIS equipped) King Airs looked into this yet?

I'm not up on all this lawsuit stuff... I think I recall that it was associated with other oufits proposing using the name "EGPWS", and that is the reason other oufits are calling it "TAWS". But all in all, I wouldn't be too worried about that. A call to NBAA would likely answer any legality issues.

As far as compatibility issues, there are many. Each case can be specific to each plane, but for example, a friend of mine is CP on a GII that has just gone through a UNS MFD-640 install along with Universal TAWS, BUT the plane has GNS-XLS's, and they are still fighting a communication problem between those boxes and the Universal TAWS.

With respect to compatibility problems if you went Universal with your existing EFIS.....you already have a Universal 1-M so the compatibility between that box and your EFIS 85B has already been worked out. You'd just be adding Universal TAWS.

Again, I would recomment against the Honeywell solution. Stay with Universal for the TAWS solution, and spring for the extra 60 grand or so for the UNS MFD-640. As I mentioned before, it will give you the 3-D TAWS and will also provide you with some growth capability in that it can display TCAS, RADAR, ALL your UNS 1M data, uplinked weather, etc...

 

[cvsfly]

But the EFIS isn't Universal it is Collins and the single FMS is the Universal UNS1-M (Jeppesen GPS database). I'm just afraid that if we go with Universal we have to replace our existing Collins MFD rather than find a EGPWS system that can use as much of our existing equipment as possible. We also have Collins RAs, Radar and TCAS. Does anyone have any cost info on EGPWS.

 

[ultrarunner]

Universal TAWS does not require the installation of the MFD-640. You only need the MFD-640 if you want to display Universal TAWS in 3-D. Your Collins MFD may very well be compatible.

But here is what you need to do next....

Burn three copies of your aircrafts Equipment List. And three copies of multiple instrument panel pictures. One each for Duncan, Elliot Aviation and Electrosonics.

Then get each of the Avionics sales reps on the horn, and fire everyone of these questions to them, plus the ones you haven't thought of yet.

Each manufacture will have it's own compatibility list. Stuff can snowball quick when talking compatibility, or the lack of it. For example.... on our Falcon, our Collins RA is not compatible with Universal TAWS, necessitating it's replacement. Your plane may be different, or not. BUT, when these outfits have the chance to review your equipment list, you can get a wealth of information that is NOT available from the Purchasing and Planning Handbook (which has pricing on this stuff).

And each of these outfits can then review your equipment and tell you your available solutions, options and the pricing. You will not get accurate pricing info without these companies reviewing your specific plane.

I have been getting quotes from each outfit. They will work with you, and I have had accurate info overnighted to me. Give 'em a call.

 

[ultrarunner]

I know Elliott Aviation has the STC. Any others? In Southeast? What are the costs, downtime? Any wait lists? If we want it installed at end of 2003, what would be the preferred course of action. If the boss were to decide to sell the aircraft before 2005, would the resale price reflect the investment of the TAWS (i.e. would we get the full investment cost out of it)?

To answer a few of these questions, any shop you may choose to do business with can tell you what kind of lead time you need to get on the schedule. If you're loooking at Late 03 I'd say get in the schedule no later than end of 2nd quarter 03.

I would guess at this point, that anyone considering the purchase of a plane prior to any mandated deadline, would look for a plane that meets the requirement.

And If I were selling one, I'd sure want to reach all market I could. All in all, I would say the investment is a safe one. Remember, is not like TAWS/EGPWS is going to be an option...it's been MANDATED... Mach 29, 2005 or you're out of business.

Oh, since you didn't specifically mentiong RVSM I am assuming you're not looking at that, and you're not planning on flying your B200 above 280?

 

[cvsfly]

Thanks for all of the replies. Just have to do the big sell to the boss, who knows very little about these things (I mean less than I do). As far as RVSM on the B200, not a chance. Not cost effective at all. I suppose if we were based in the west and did alot of long range trips eastbound it might be worth a shot. I think we are going to find that the deadline for RVSM will see alot more postponments than EGPWS.

 

[ultrarunner]

I agree with you on the RVSM... just doesn't make sense for the few times you'd want to be that high in a KA.

And is not so much in selling the boss...he has to buy one solution regarding EGPWS/TAWS, but you are well on your way to gathering all the info.

The three outfits I have mentioned do a very nice job in presenting quotes. Please report back.

 

[cvsfly]

Will do. As for the boss - I'm just getting more nervous these days. He has always said he is committed to keeping the plane and even has talked upgrading to a jet. But the last few months he has done very little flying and is relying on charter to keep the plane busy. With all the increases in insurance and other costs, talk of a jet is years away and I need to have my ducks in a row and present the best cost effective solution to equipment upgrades. He has had a fractional as well and I hope he doesn't decide just to that and sell the KA. In a year, I would also like to encourage him to redo the interior and maybe even add some Raisback mods. Elliott Aviation seams like a one stop shop in that regard.