Taking ATP checkride with expired written

[beechscum]

I am currently employed with a 121 air carrier as an FO and want to go outside the company to get an ATP license since upgrades at my company have come to a stand-still. The only regs I have found pertaining to this situation is in part 61.39. It does state that a person may take the ATP practical with an expired written test provide, a. employed by 121 air carrier, AND b.has satisfactorily accomplished that operator's approved pic qualification training program, etc.

I have talked to the examiner that would give the checkride and I also called the local FSDO and talked to an inspector. They both said I could take the practical.
I still don't feel comfortable with this situation because the way the reg. reads I need to do the practical with my company. Again I am a FO, I have only passed sic training course with this company.

If anybody has anything in writing that can prove I can take the practical without going through the company would be appreciated. Otherwise I guess I have to take another written test?

 

[ultrarunner]

I am currently employed with a 121 air carrier as an FO and want to go outside the company to get an ATP license since upgrades at my company have come to a stand-still. The only regs I have found pertaining to this situation is in part 61.39. It does state that a person may take the ATP practical with an expired written test provide, a. employed by 121 air carrier, AND b.has satisfactorily accomplished that operator's approved pic qualification training program, etc.

"...Again I am a FO, I have only passed sic training course with this company..."

Here is what is happening beechscum...the local folks you have talked to are saying that, yes, you can do the practical, but you have to do it through the company. This is because you have NOT completed the PIC training. But should the company PROVIDE this training, the FAA will gladly issue you the ATP/Type rating (provided you pass). As required in the FAR's.

Here is my advice. Whenever you can 'take the company out of the loop, the better'.

Go re-take the written, and get the ATP on your own. It'll be a few bucks well spent. Unless of course you've got a hard-on for the type rating of the plane you're in.

 

[beechscum]

yes, ultrarunner, my gut instinct agrees with you. I hate that *#&@ written test, would just soon take a sledge hammer to the stomach as retake it. I'm afraid I don't have a choice though.

thanks

 

[ultrarunner]

I hear ya beechscum, I hear ya. But ya know, grab that ATP study guide, go throght it two or three times on an RON, and go take that sucker, and you'll be good to go.

Heck, what other test can you study for that gives you ALL the questions and ALL the answers....

is it any wonder that FSDO's are staffed with...

oh, never mind.

 

[A Squared]

The regulation is obviously intended for pilots upgradign to captain at thier airline. However, I have heard more than once that certain FSDO's will also accept an expired written for an ATP done outside of the company. Now, it theory, things shouldn't differ from FSDO to FSDO, but in reality, they do to some degree. If the FSDO and the examier agree that it is ok, why not do it?

 

[vclean]

Although your local FSDO may permit you to take a pt 91 ATP ride with an expired
written, it would likely be rejected by Oklahoma City.

 

[Hung Start]

Heck,,, be a man! Take the written over. It's not like your studying the Fundamentals of Instruction!

And, you do miss Martha King, doncha????

 

[bobbysamd]

ATP on your nickel

Go re-take the written, and get the ATP on your own. It'll be a few bucks well spent. Unless of course you've got a hard-on for the type rating of the plane you're in.

Excellent advice. Studying for writtens and/or going to class is a lot of trouble, but it won't be as bad as you think. Further, what a lot of people have done is take the practical in a simple single. Your certificate will still read "Airline Transport Pilot." Your Commercial multi privileges would be upgraded during your PIC upgrade ride. Finally, your out-of-pocket costs for taking the ATP are fully tax-deductable if you itemize.

Good luck with your practical.

 

[beechscum]

thanks for the replies gang. I definately don't want to go through the practical and be out the money to have it rejected in OKC. I will probably be re-taking the darn thing.

thanks

 

[nosehair]

Although your local FSDO may permit you to take a pt 91 ATP ride with an expired
written, it would likely be rejected by Oklahoma City.

...and where is your head, Man?
Where, on the 8710, or the Examiners report, or any other documents of pilot certification, do you put down where you work and what you do?

 

[JAFI]

The problem I see here is that if you take a practical exam with an expired written (outside of the approved way to use expired written) and it some how does get through OK City, then during any records check later shows you took the exam out side of the Regulations. You can expect an Order of Revocation or a 44709 to review your qualifications.

It has happened in the past. I have heard of an entire group of graduates of certain schools loosing their certificates because of such - irregularities...


This is when you ask your self ... How lucky do I feel today, tommorrow, 10 years from now...etc.....

JAFI

 

[vclean]

...and where is your head, Man?
Where, on the 8710, or the Examiners report, or any other documents of pilot certification, do you put down where you work and what you do?

8710 (II) (E), Completion of Air Carrier's Training Program. Otherwise (II) (A) would be used for pt 61, (II) (C) for a pt 142 (ie. Higher Power) course.

 

[jimpilot]

sORRY

I deal with this kind of thing often in my job. The sorce of answers is the FAA's FAQ file maintained here:

www.faa.gov/AVR/AFS/AFS800/DOCS/pt61FAQ.doc

Here is the closest question I could find:

QUESTION: Ref. § 61.39(b)(1)(i) and (2); I serve as a Navigator “flight crewmember” in the United States Air Force Reserves on a KC-135 Tanker. I’ve also completed an approved air carrier First Officer training program for a Part 121 operator that I work for as a First Officer. I also hold a Commercial Pilot Certificate with an Airplane Single-engine Land and Airplane Multiengine Land and Instrument‑Airplane ratings. And I also meet the ATP aeronautical experience requirements of § 61.159. My question is, am I qualified to make application for the ATP‑Airplane Multiengine Land practical test with an EXPIRED ATP-Airplane knowledge test?



ANSWER: Ref. § 61.39(b)(1)(i) and (2); You are not qualified to take the ATP practical test with an expired ATP‑Airplane knowledge test. Your qualifications do not comply with § 61.39(b)(1)(i) because you have not accomplished your air carrier employer’s “Pilot in command aircraft qualification training program . . .” Nor are you qualified in accordance with § 61.39(b)(2), since you are not a military pilot nor have you “. . . accomplished the pilot in command aircraft qualification training program . . .” Even though you’ve pointed out that as a Navigator in your U.S. Air Force Reserve unit you are a “flight crewmember” (i.e., Navigator), the rule requires you to be a military pilot and you must have “. . . accomplished the pilot in command aircraft qualification training program . . .” of that U.S. Air Force reserve unit.


They added this thought a few questions down:

But the reason we proposed it this way, is because it was determined that completion of an air carrier SIC training program does not meet the requirements for permitting a person to be eligible to apply for a type rating. Never did! The old rule was not correct, so we changed it. Most likely the old rule made a lot of air carrier SIC's happy that they became eligible to apply for a type rating by only completing an air carrier SIC training program! However, the old rule made the general aviation pilot complete all the training of the old Appendix A of Part 61 to become eligible to apply for a type rating.

So it looks like you're out of luck.

 

[beechscum]

ya, pretty much figured that, going to take it again at all atps next fri.

fun, fun, fun!!

thanks

 

[jimpilot]

Good Luck!

 

[414Flyer]

Heck,,, be a man! Take the written over. It's not like your studying the Fundamentals of Instruction!

And, you do miss Martha King, doncha????

Oh the joy of watching those King tapes. Found out the "examiner" in the King CFI Checkride practice tapes from the 90s, is now a "woman", as least as much as a sex change will do.