hawkerflyer
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Tagged by the FAA, is it game over ?
- Thread starter hawkerflyer
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3
350DRIVER
There is a very simple solution to this problem, "explain" and "justify" the letter and the rest should be history. What is the problem.?
Enough said (period).
Dunno why you want Sworst but if that is the case why not see how much damage the letter has or has not caused. IF you can prove that it was quite "costly" then sue for slander/falsification of character or something along those lines.
Very difficult to give an accurate response since you have not revealed many details at all.
More information may prove more "accurate" responses.
good luck
3 5 0
Enough said (period).
Dunno why you want Sworst but if that is the case why not see how much damage the letter has or has not caused. IF you can prove that it was quite "costly" then sue for slander/falsification of character or something along those lines.
Very difficult to give an accurate response since you have not revealed many details at all.
More information may prove more "accurate" responses.
good luck
3 5 0
jimEJet
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2002
- Posts
- 90
Sent to whom??
DID THEY SEND IT TO SWA? OR A FUTURE COMPANY YOU WANT TO WORK FOR DURING A BACKGROUND CHECK?
OR IS IT ATTACHED TO YOUR EMPLOYEE RECORDS?
NOT SURE WHAT THE DEAL IS?
IF THEY SENT IT OFF TO A FUTURE EMPLOYER DURING A BACKGROUND CHECK THEN YOU MUST IMMEDIATELY CONTACT THE FUTURE EMPLOYER WITH A REBUTTAL OF SAID NEGATIVE INFO.
INCLUDE ALL PERTINENT DETAILS OF THE SITUATION, HOW IT CAME ABOUT, WHY YOU THOUGHT THE WAY YOU DID, AND WHAT YOU'VE LEARNED FROM IT WITHOUT NAME CALLING OR PUSHING THE BLAME ON SOMEONE ELSE. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS IN THE LETTER AND SHOW THAT YOU'VE SEEN THE LIGHT, HOWEVER.
IF THE SITUATION PRESENTED BY THE INDIVIDUAL IS TRUE AND YOU LIED ABOUT ANY PART OF THE INCIDENT OR SITUATION TO YOUR FUTURE EMPLOYER YOU MAY BE OUT OF LUCK.
FOR INSTANCE: DID YOU EVER BUST A CHECKRIDE OR HAVE YOU BEEN REMOVED FROM FLYING FOR ANY REASON??
YOU ANSWERED: NO ( WITH NO EXPLANATION )
THE MYSTERY PERSON ATTACHED SOMETHING TO YOUR RECORDS STATING THAT YOU IN FACT, WERE REMOVED FROM FLYING DUTY FOR POOR ATTITUDE OR SEVERAL NO SHOWS OR WHATEVER.
IN THAT SITUATION, YOU MAY BE OUT OF LUCK.
REMEMBER, EACH AND EVERYONE ONE OF US HAVE MESSED UP IN OUR LIVES. JUST MAKE SURE YOU DOCUMENT EVERYTHING AND PRESENT IT IN THE MOST HONEST AND LOGICAL SEQUENCE TO A FUTURE EMPLOYER.
IF YOU PRESENT SOME VAGUE DETAILS OR INFO, WE MAY BE ABLE TO STEER YOU TO THE RIGHT PEOPLE IN ORDER TO HELP YOU.
ROB BEEKS COMES TO MIND.
HE MAY BE ABLE TO HELP YOU PREPARE FOR AN INTERVIEW OR GET YOUR SIDE OF THE STORY WELL THOUGHT OUT AND PRESENTABLE TO THE FUTURE EMPLOYER.
GOOD LUCK
DID THEY SEND IT TO SWA? OR A FUTURE COMPANY YOU WANT TO WORK FOR DURING A BACKGROUND CHECK?
OR IS IT ATTACHED TO YOUR EMPLOYEE RECORDS?
NOT SURE WHAT THE DEAL IS?
IF THEY SENT IT OFF TO A FUTURE EMPLOYER DURING A BACKGROUND CHECK THEN YOU MUST IMMEDIATELY CONTACT THE FUTURE EMPLOYER WITH A REBUTTAL OF SAID NEGATIVE INFO.
INCLUDE ALL PERTINENT DETAILS OF THE SITUATION, HOW IT CAME ABOUT, WHY YOU THOUGHT THE WAY YOU DID, AND WHAT YOU'VE LEARNED FROM IT WITHOUT NAME CALLING OR PUSHING THE BLAME ON SOMEONE ELSE. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS IN THE LETTER AND SHOW THAT YOU'VE SEEN THE LIGHT, HOWEVER.
IF THE SITUATION PRESENTED BY THE INDIVIDUAL IS TRUE AND YOU LIED ABOUT ANY PART OF THE INCIDENT OR SITUATION TO YOUR FUTURE EMPLOYER YOU MAY BE OUT OF LUCK.
FOR INSTANCE: DID YOU EVER BUST A CHECKRIDE OR HAVE YOU BEEN REMOVED FROM FLYING FOR ANY REASON??
YOU ANSWERED: NO ( WITH NO EXPLANATION )
THE MYSTERY PERSON ATTACHED SOMETHING TO YOUR RECORDS STATING THAT YOU IN FACT, WERE REMOVED FROM FLYING DUTY FOR POOR ATTITUDE OR SEVERAL NO SHOWS OR WHATEVER.
IN THAT SITUATION, YOU MAY BE OUT OF LUCK.
REMEMBER, EACH AND EVERYONE ONE OF US HAVE MESSED UP IN OUR LIVES. JUST MAKE SURE YOU DOCUMENT EVERYTHING AND PRESENT IT IN THE MOST HONEST AND LOGICAL SEQUENCE TO A FUTURE EMPLOYER.
IF YOU PRESENT SOME VAGUE DETAILS OR INFO, WE MAY BE ABLE TO STEER YOU TO THE RIGHT PEOPLE IN ORDER TO HELP YOU.
ROB BEEKS COMES TO MIND.
HE MAY BE ABLE TO HELP YOU PREPARE FOR AN INTERVIEW OR GET YOUR SIDE OF THE STORY WELL THOUGHT OUT AND PRESENTABLE TO THE FUTURE EMPLOYER.
GOOD LUCK
jetblue320
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2003
- Posts
- 572
Letter or Cert. Action?
This info is direct from an FAA Insp. which I had on board today doing an Observation Ride on a new Captain:
If you have received a "letter" from the FAA that info will not be disclosed to a potential employer when running a background check on your certificate. If you have certificate action posted or pending, that will be disclosed. Without knowing the specifics of your situation (and I am sure you don't want to go into to details on this forum) it is hard to say what the outcome of your pending application to SWA will be. If you feel you have been slandered or character deformed, you might want to seek legal counsel.
Good luck.
This info is direct from an FAA Insp. which I had on board today doing an Observation Ride on a new Captain:
If you have received a "letter" from the FAA that info will not be disclosed to a potential employer when running a background check on your certificate. If you have certificate action posted or pending, that will be disclosed. Without knowing the specifics of your situation (and I am sure you don't want to go into to details on this forum) it is hard to say what the outcome of your pending application to SWA will be. If you feel you have been slandered or character deformed, you might want to seek legal counsel.
Good luck.
I thinkinknowwhaturvaguelygetnat
Anonymous letters are not allowed in records under the Records Improvement Act nor documentation of your personnel/employee records. Inclusion of such a letter violates most state laws with regards to what can and can not be in employee records. You will have to find out for yourself by searching your states' labor law. Legally, prospective employers are required to discard such contents but in such a competitive market who is to say what airlines weigh what kind of material contained therin. Only real recourse is to pay a labor attorney a flat fee to wright a cease and dissist letter to former emplyer to have material barred by law removed.
Always, Always, Always, get a copy of your records sent to you when you complete the authorization request form form the FAA and former Employers. You never know who you ticked off that is still stuck in that "go-nowhere company" that may try to negatively affect you without your knowledge. By law what is sent to your potential employer should match EXACTLY what is sent to you. Differences are a violation of the Federal Law, punishable by hefty fines for the operator and/or jail time. It is a very serious invasion of privacy (Federal). Unfortunately, it is a criminal act as opposed to a civil one where you may seek "damages". The request forms are available on the FAA Web site. Print them out and send them to previous employers if you suspect malicious activity by a former employer and/or staff. Your employer history may be more valuable than a credit history. You need to keep tabs on it and protect it accordingly. Just like your records, there are limits to what can be said and asked about you as well (Phone reference calls). Federal and state laws prohibit questions and statements that are discrimination, bias or irrespective of the position held, performance history and attendance data. Some states prohibit questions/statements about anything not found on the employer's application. You have to do a little leg work to find out about your situation every state is different.
If, the anonymous letter generated and led to FAA Enforcement. An Aviation atty is a really good idea to expunge your record. There are limits and procedures to initiate an investigation. I am most certain the whistleblower law only pertains to Management (CP, DO, CEO). Anonymous letters cannot be used by one crew mate against another. The only exception to this is when a multiple member crew bust a regulation and someone on that crew completes a NASA form for the incident. Despite popular opinion, these forms in certain instances may be used in conjunction with other material to initiate an FAA investigation against another crew who may/not have also completed the form as well. NASA FORMS ARE NOT A GET OUT OF JAIL FREE PASS!!! What happens in the cockpit stays in the cockpit?!? Best insurance available! Captain is the leader and should set this tone. Leap of faith in that neither one will try to burn the other just because they don't like the other. Whole 'nother can of worms.
Back on track- An FAA atty can help you review the FAA Inspector's Handbook for proper procedure for initiating an enforcement action. FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) Request. Call the FSDO office that generated the enforcment action. You'll go right to the top of the stack if you sound like you know what you are doing. Ask for the FOIA Officer (pronounced FO-YEA) to complete a request into an enforcement/investigation action number. It will be a number on the FAA Form letter at the top and usually begins with the designator for the FSDO Office. You will want all external and internal memos notes computer generated and hand written used to justify inititiation of the investigation. If there is any sign of non-procedural compliance with the Inspector's Handbook for the enforcement, all bets are off and the record is completely restored to it's previous state only after a lengthy red-tape process that again your atty will help you with. In the initial steps of a FOIA Request, they will not release any names or personal information of your accuser. You will need to file a civil suit against the former employer for slander and defamation of character to recoup costs for the FAA clean-up. Some states will let you seek punitive damages exceeding the costs of litigation with the FAA. Pain and suffering. lost wages (current and future in some cases), mental incapacitation. Chances are pretty likely that company is low enough on the food chain, you won't get much out of them financially and they will easily caugh up your accuser like a hairball. Chances are the accusser is even less financially equipped than the company. How far do you want to take it?!?
Do the FAA first and then worry about getting your money back if it is this serious.
If, however, it is just some letter that got thrown in your files when a hooligan saw the records request, the prospective employer will not give it any more weight than you give it. If I had the oportunity, I would use something like that to see how you handle such a situation. The response I would be looking for (based on the limited information to speculate on)
...Hmmm, that is very interesting, this is the first I have heard of such an incident. I don't recall ever being involved in such an incident/situation and can tell you nothing about it. SHUT UP!!! Next one that talks, loses. and it will likely be them moving on to another topic. Lock in eyeballs with the person asking the questio. If, you can't eyeball them with a confident smile you lose.
Whether you really know anything or not, is not the point. The point is that someone didn't have the balls to put their name with the allegations, thereby requiring no defense on your part. You don't want to be advising them in the interview, but they should not inquire your side of the story to any real depth or discovery based solely on an anonymous letter in your records. Although, If used as an exercise in a form of hypothetical, it could be a very valuable tool for the Interviewer(s) as I said, I would use it.
If you are defending a violation or certificate action stemming from that letter, don't make excuses or pass the blame if you in fact committed the violation. Be brief and concise on details surrounding the violation. Don't whine about being shafted. State the facts, you violated an FAR in an unfortunate situation and an UNKNOWN crewmate maliciously turned you in to the FAA... "Though I was ____________ (fill in the blank - SIC; new to the company as PIC; training a new FO), I could have taken a more proactive leadership role with regards to CRM in that situation and will not make the same mistake again." yadda, yadda, yadda, skip the sim, you're hired!
Good Luck,
Hope this helps.
100-1/2
Anonymous letters are not allowed in records under the Records Improvement Act nor documentation of your personnel/employee records. Inclusion of such a letter violates most state laws with regards to what can and can not be in employee records. You will have to find out for yourself by searching your states' labor law. Legally, prospective employers are required to discard such contents but in such a competitive market who is to say what airlines weigh what kind of material contained therin. Only real recourse is to pay a labor attorney a flat fee to wright a cease and dissist letter to former emplyer to have material barred by law removed.
Always, Always, Always, get a copy of your records sent to you when you complete the authorization request form form the FAA and former Employers. You never know who you ticked off that is still stuck in that "go-nowhere company" that may try to negatively affect you without your knowledge. By law what is sent to your potential employer should match EXACTLY what is sent to you. Differences are a violation of the Federal Law, punishable by hefty fines for the operator and/or jail time. It is a very serious invasion of privacy (Federal). Unfortunately, it is a criminal act as opposed to a civil one where you may seek "damages". The request forms are available on the FAA Web site. Print them out and send them to previous employers if you suspect malicious activity by a former employer and/or staff. Your employer history may be more valuable than a credit history. You need to keep tabs on it and protect it accordingly. Just like your records, there are limits to what can be said and asked about you as well (Phone reference calls). Federal and state laws prohibit questions and statements that are discrimination, bias or irrespective of the position held, performance history and attendance data. Some states prohibit questions/statements about anything not found on the employer's application. You have to do a little leg work to find out about your situation every state is different.
If, the anonymous letter generated and led to FAA Enforcement. An Aviation atty is a really good idea to expunge your record. There are limits and procedures to initiate an investigation. I am most certain the whistleblower law only pertains to Management (CP, DO, CEO). Anonymous letters cannot be used by one crew mate against another. The only exception to this is when a multiple member crew bust a regulation and someone on that crew completes a NASA form for the incident. Despite popular opinion, these forms in certain instances may be used in conjunction with other material to initiate an FAA investigation against another crew who may/not have also completed the form as well. NASA FORMS ARE NOT A GET OUT OF JAIL FREE PASS!!! What happens in the cockpit stays in the cockpit?!? Best insurance available! Captain is the leader and should set this tone. Leap of faith in that neither one will try to burn the other just because they don't like the other. Whole 'nother can of worms.
Back on track- An FAA atty can help you review the FAA Inspector's Handbook for proper procedure for initiating an enforcement action. FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) Request. Call the FSDO office that generated the enforcment action. You'll go right to the top of the stack if you sound like you know what you are doing. Ask for the FOIA Officer (pronounced FO-YEA) to complete a request into an enforcement/investigation action number. It will be a number on the FAA Form letter at the top and usually begins with the designator for the FSDO Office. You will want all external and internal memos notes computer generated and hand written used to justify inititiation of the investigation. If there is any sign of non-procedural compliance with the Inspector's Handbook for the enforcement, all bets are off and the record is completely restored to it's previous state only after a lengthy red-tape process that again your atty will help you with. In the initial steps of a FOIA Request, they will not release any names or personal information of your accuser. You will need to file a civil suit against the former employer for slander and defamation of character to recoup costs for the FAA clean-up. Some states will let you seek punitive damages exceeding the costs of litigation with the FAA. Pain and suffering. lost wages (current and future in some cases), mental incapacitation. Chances are pretty likely that company is low enough on the food chain, you won't get much out of them financially and they will easily caugh up your accuser like a hairball. Chances are the accusser is even less financially equipped than the company. How far do you want to take it?!?
Do the FAA first and then worry about getting your money back if it is this serious.
If, however, it is just some letter that got thrown in your files when a hooligan saw the records request, the prospective employer will not give it any more weight than you give it. If I had the oportunity, I would use something like that to see how you handle such a situation. The response I would be looking for (based on the limited information to speculate on)
...Hmmm, that is very interesting, this is the first I have heard of such an incident. I don't recall ever being involved in such an incident/situation and can tell you nothing about it. SHUT UP!!! Next one that talks, loses. and it will likely be them moving on to another topic. Lock in eyeballs with the person asking the questio. If, you can't eyeball them with a confident smile you lose.
Whether you really know anything or not, is not the point. The point is that someone didn't have the balls to put their name with the allegations, thereby requiring no defense on your part. You don't want to be advising them in the interview, but they should not inquire your side of the story to any real depth or discovery based solely on an anonymous letter in your records. Although, If used as an exercise in a form of hypothetical, it could be a very valuable tool for the Interviewer(s) as I said, I would use it.
If you are defending a violation or certificate action stemming from that letter, don't make excuses or pass the blame if you in fact committed the violation. Be brief and concise on details surrounding the violation. Don't whine about being shafted. State the facts, you violated an FAR in an unfortunate situation and an UNKNOWN crewmate maliciously turned you in to the FAA... "Though I was ____________ (fill in the blank - SIC; new to the company as PIC; training a new FO), I could have taken a more proactive leadership role with regards to CRM in that situation and will not make the same mistake again." yadda, yadda, yadda, skip the sim, you're hired!
Good Luck,
Hope this helps.
100-1/2
Last edited:
flynryan15
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2003
- Posts
- 637
work problems
Guys can you tell me how airlines check your employemnet history, Will a couple of jobs I lost waiting tables in colege be held against me. Anyone who has worked this way knows how it can be. Fired cause I was late on days I told them I couldn't work cause I had class. Would this be something you guys tell them about it was many years ago over five anyway would you even tell them. Or just wait for them to bring it up. Anything you guys can tell me I would appreciate you can PM me if you want
Ryan
Guys can you tell me how airlines check your employemnet history, Will a couple of jobs I lost waiting tables in colege be held against me. Anyone who has worked this way knows how it can be. Fired cause I was late on days I told them I couldn't work cause I had class. Would this be something you guys tell them about it was many years ago over five anyway would you even tell them. Or just wait for them to bring it up. Anything you guys can tell me I would appreciate you can PM me if you want
Ryan
dlredline
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2003
- Posts
- 310
Re: work problems
Federal Law requires airlines to conduct a 10 year background check for security reasons. ANY employment within this 10 year period is (and should be) fair game for review. If in doubt to include a certain job on an application (part time, etc.), if compensation was involved, include it. Remember there many sources HR departments can utilize to verify employment (SS deductions, state tax contributions, etc.). Also, gaps of greater than 3 months in employment should have an explanation.
DL
flynryan15 said:
Federal Law requires airlines to conduct a 10 year background check for security reasons. ANY employment within this 10 year period is (and should be) fair game for review. If in doubt to include a certain job on an application (part time, etc.), if compensation was involved, include it. Remember there many sources HR departments can utilize to verify employment (SS deductions, state tax contributions, etc.). Also, gaps of greater than 3 months in employment should have an explanation.
DL
LJDRVR
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 1,134
Hawkerflyer,
Sorry about your misfortune dude. There are two seperate issues here: Your immediate livelihood and future employment. Let's concencentrate on number one. Don't listen to us barracks lawyers. If you've received a letter of investigation or proposed certificate action from the FAA, get an attorney and get one now. If you are an AOPA member, their legal services plan would be your first stop. if not, there are a host of aviation practive lawyers all over the country. Having heard him speak, and read his B/CA articles, I would recommend Kent Jackson of Jackson & Wade LLC in Overland Park KS. If Mr. Jackson thinks a local attorney needs to handle your case, I'll bet he's able to recommend a good one. (913) 338-1700.
Best of luck. Let us know how it turns out!
350 Driver: Nice positive outlook and excellent legal advice. Good job counselor!
Sorry about your misfortune dude. There are two seperate issues here: Your immediate livelihood and future employment. Let's concencentrate on number one. Don't listen to us barracks lawyers. If you've received a letter of investigation or proposed certificate action from the FAA, get an attorney and get one now. If you are an AOPA member, their legal services plan would be your first stop. if not, there are a host of aviation practive lawyers all over the country. Having heard him speak, and read his B/CA articles, I would recommend Kent Jackson of Jackson & Wade LLC in Overland Park KS. If Mr. Jackson thinks a local attorney needs to handle your case, I'll bet he's able to recommend a good one. (913) 338-1700.
Best of luck. Let us know how it turns out!
350 Driver: Nice positive outlook and excellent legal advice. Good job counselor!
hawkerflyer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2003
- Posts
- 485
Just to clarify a few things and without going into too much detail, an anonymous letter was sent to the FAA regarding an FAR 135 flight for which I was PIC. No accident, incident or bent metal. An LOI was issued, legal counsel was sought and the final outcome was a financial civil penalty for violating FAR 91.7b. I was able to avoid a suspension with legal representation, current employer is aware of it. No prior problems, first offense, good checkride history, etc. Thanks to all for the input and interest.
Singlecoil
I don't reMember
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Thrust Master
520 Club President
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MLBWINGBORN
Freedom Fighter
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- Posts
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The reality is that it is very easy in many cases to end up in your situation..
Lets assume that you have done everything that you can to deal with the technicalitys of the violation..Case closed and its history..
Now..Im not in any way suggesting that you lie or mislead anyone EVER..
But..there are ways to tell your side of the story in such a way that would present the facts of the event in the best possible light..
There are always some sort of circumstance that led you to do what ever it was you did..Knowbody wakes up one morning and decides that today im gonna go out and get violated..
So..Was it a normal procedure that the company indorsed that the FAA suddenly decided to take exception too?
Was it a judment call that could have gone either way and someone else took a more conservative view?
Was it an intermitant problem that was being worked?
Were you trying to keep the trip on track and your passangers from being displaced and decided to continue with something that was otherwise completely safe in all regards and you got caught on a technicality?
It think you see what im trying to say..
When you tell your side of the story, be able to do so in the simplest terms..You never know the background of whom you may be talking to..
So..Tell the facts of the matter in the least damaging manor possible..
Provide complete supporting documentation about the event..
As much as possible support your decision in a positive way while providing insight into why you did what you did..
Accept responcibility for your actions as PIC of the flight..
Lastly..Say what you learned from this event and how it has changed you and the way you do your job..
Remember..Attitude is everything and a good attitude can help while telling the worst possible story..
Good luck..
Mike
Lets assume that you have done everything that you can to deal with the technicalitys of the violation..Case closed and its history..
Now..Im not in any way suggesting that you lie or mislead anyone EVER..
But..there are ways to tell your side of the story in such a way that would present the facts of the event in the best possible light..
There are always some sort of circumstance that led you to do what ever it was you did..Knowbody wakes up one morning and decides that today im gonna go out and get violated..
So..Was it a normal procedure that the company indorsed that the FAA suddenly decided to take exception too?
Was it a judment call that could have gone either way and someone else took a more conservative view?
Was it an intermitant problem that was being worked?
Were you trying to keep the trip on track and your passangers from being displaced and decided to continue with something that was otherwise completely safe in all regards and you got caught on a technicality?
It think you see what im trying to say..
When you tell your side of the story, be able to do so in the simplest terms..You never know the background of whom you may be talking to..
So..Tell the facts of the matter in the least damaging manor possible..
Provide complete supporting documentation about the event..
As much as possible support your decision in a positive way while providing insight into why you did what you did..
Accept responcibility for your actions as PIC of the flight..
Lastly..Say what you learned from this event and how it has changed you and the way you do your job..
Remember..Attitude is everything and a good attitude can help while telling the worst possible story..
Good luck..
Mike
3
350DRIVER
You may want to see if in fact anything has been noted in your airman file in OKC. I would request a copy of all of your records and then go from there. I find it somewhat odd and a tad puzzling that they found you in "violation" of 91.7(b) b u t it has been not called an "incident". Obviously "if" indeed you were found guilty of a violation then somehow or someway there had to be some sort of "incident" that lead up to a "letter" being sent to the FAA. If this is part of your file then obviously you are going to have some explaining and justification to do when the interview comes around but this may not be the "end of the road" for you. One can always turn a "negative" into a "positive" if you know how to explain and justify this. The info that you have given is still not enough to make a full and precise statement with regards to this.
If you feel that you got a raw deal and/or slander then you may want to consider legal action against who ever wrote the letter to tip the FAA off. Obviously if the FAA did act on this then there must have been some validity and truth to this but without more information I can only speculate, assume, and guess what actually took place. With what has been said I am assuming that you will have but one choice, fess up and admit that you made a mistake and have a positive attitude about it and show that everything else in your background, files, career, etc, is flawless and unblemished. When Dresser headed up the COEX interviews he was known to give people the benefit of the doubt as long as the person would admit he made a mistake and that he learned from it and the "experience" made the person a better pilot.
A mistake is nothing more than a learning experience and take the negative and turn it into a "positive" when you go to interview. I have seen many pilots who made prior mistakes gain employment with different carriers. "Justifying" your action and being able to use a "silver tongue" will probably either make or break you.
3 5 0
Request Form Link
http://registry.faa.gov/docs/COMPRQST.pdf
An anonymous Letter does not meet the requirements for FAA Form 8020-17 "Preliminary Pilot Deviation Report" for your apparent "deviation" of 91.7b. Sources for notification of an "incident" or "occurance" are: The inspector themselves, a regional operations center (ROC)/air traffic facility or Form 8020-17. Being as none of these outlets were used, the Inspector obviously felt some action was necessary. If a warning letter was issued supplemental to the civil penalty, that is expunged from your record after 2 years from issue. There will not be a record of the Civil penalty in the FAA or Airman Records. The FAA maintains history of fines/penalties against Air Carriers and not individuals. Certaintly not available to potential employers during a records request.
As for 91.7b, there is a reckless host of 30-something Inspector's out there trying to hose people on this. When you research the foundations of the reg, you find a clear difference between the author's intent and that of some inspector's. The defense is found in the first part of the regulation and that is often upheld (in court) as irrefutable: "91.7(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight..... The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur." Where Inspector's go wrong is by amplifying mechanical, electrical and structural "conditions" beyond the scope of FAR Part 1, 23, 25 and 43 Definitions. These guys need to be reigned in and challenged on this bunk BS.
I have been in your shoes, got the T-shirt and the Keychain. It is not fun nor cheap but you will prevail if you can stand the fight. For Hawker, it is unlikely appeal is an option as it appears to be quite dated. For others, early recognition and Representation will often be the best tools. If you get a hint of an investigation or Notice of Investigation. Act quickly and swiftly! These guys are more apt to back down before a finding than reversing one.
100-1/2
http://registry.faa.gov/docs/COMPRQST.pdf
An anonymous Letter does not meet the requirements for FAA Form 8020-17 "Preliminary Pilot Deviation Report" for your apparent "deviation" of 91.7b. Sources for notification of an "incident" or "occurance" are: The inspector themselves, a regional operations center (ROC)/air traffic facility or Form 8020-17. Being as none of these outlets were used, the Inspector obviously felt some action was necessary. If a warning letter was issued supplemental to the civil penalty, that is expunged from your record after 2 years from issue. There will not be a record of the Civil penalty in the FAA or Airman Records. The FAA maintains history of fines/penalties against Air Carriers and not individuals. Certaintly not available to potential employers during a records request.
As for 91.7b, there is a reckless host of 30-something Inspector's out there trying to hose people on this. When you research the foundations of the reg, you find a clear difference between the author's intent and that of some inspector's. The defense is found in the first part of the regulation and that is often upheld (in court) as irrefutable: "91.7(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight..... The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur." Where Inspector's go wrong is by amplifying mechanical, electrical and structural "conditions" beyond the scope of FAR Part 1, 23, 25 and 43 Definitions. These guys need to be reigned in and challenged on this bunk BS.
I have been in your shoes, got the T-shirt and the Keychain. It is not fun nor cheap but you will prevail if you can stand the fight. For Hawker, it is unlikely appeal is an option as it appears to be quite dated. For others, early recognition and Representation will often be the best tools. If you get a hint of an investigation or Notice of Investigation. Act quickly and swiftly! These guys are more apt to back down before a finding than reversing one.
100-1/2
hawkerflyer
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- Nov 20, 2003
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