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TAB Express
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Publishers
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2002
- Posts
- 1,736
bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
Should you pick up the TAB?
I'll save you some time.
This thread is probably the best one I've seen on the subject from the standpoint that it at least is not one-sided. Some of my opinions are there, so I won't repeat them here.
Hope that helps.
I'll save you some time.
This thread is probably the best one I've seen on the subject from the standpoint that it at least is not one-sided. Some of my opinions are there, so I won't repeat them here.
Hope that helps.
thanks for your input. I have spent hours and hours reading all that has been said on this website about various flight schools. I also noticed that you had been an instructor at mesa's school. I have a question for you. I have herd that Mesa's washout rate in training is the worst in the industry, like 50%. I was wondering if this is true. Also, any new input about tab would be helpful, if anyone has any. Thanks in advance
Chris York
Chris York
bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
MAPD
Yeah, I've heard stories, alright, about Mesa's washout rate. But, understand that initial training is a horse of a different color compared to flight school. It can be major culture shock.
I don't think that you can tie MAPD to the washout rate directly, because so many MAPD grads succeed. Just the same, lack of experience might have something to do with washouts. MAPD pushes people hard and imbues you thoroughly in Mesa's line procedures. Graduates who abide by the program and go with the flow get interviews, and get hired. After that, they're on their own, meaning they must perform at the same level with pilots who might have far more experience than they and who have experienced and know how to deal with high-pressure airline ground school and sim training. Everyone is now playing on the same playing field, and experience can make a difference in your success. Compare it to college football players transitioning to the NFL. These are excellent football players, but they have to get through training camp, which is more intense than college football practice. Then, they have to prove that they can play with real professional football players. There are NFL players who get professional football experience elsewhere, such as NFL-Europe or minor league football, and because they've been there they know what to expect. Compare that to instructing for a while and flying freight or 135 before hire at the commuters.
One other point is the quality of instructor. Not all airline instructors are positive and supportive. A good many of them are not teachers at all but are fascists on an ego trip who revel in busting people. Or, they cannot teach. Or, you just may not hit it off with your instructor, as hard as you try (I had such an experience in a job.). Unfortunately, you need these people for your success. I'd say poor instructor-student relations contribute heavily to high washout rates, at all airlines and not just Mesa.
Hope that helps some more. In any event, good luck with your choice.
Yeah, I've heard stories, alright, about Mesa's washout rate. But, understand that initial training is a horse of a different color compared to flight school. It can be major culture shock.
I don't think that you can tie MAPD to the washout rate directly, because so many MAPD grads succeed. Just the same, lack of experience might have something to do with washouts. MAPD pushes people hard and imbues you thoroughly in Mesa's line procedures. Graduates who abide by the program and go with the flow get interviews, and get hired. After that, they're on their own, meaning they must perform at the same level with pilots who might have far more experience than they and who have experienced and know how to deal with high-pressure airline ground school and sim training. Everyone is now playing on the same playing field, and experience can make a difference in your success. Compare it to college football players transitioning to the NFL. These are excellent football players, but they have to get through training camp, which is more intense than college football practice. Then, they have to prove that they can play with real professional football players. There are NFL players who get professional football experience elsewhere, such as NFL-Europe or minor league football, and because they've been there they know what to expect. Compare that to instructing for a while and flying freight or 135 before hire at the commuters.
One other point is the quality of instructor. Not all airline instructors are positive and supportive. A good many of them are not teachers at all but are fascists on an ego trip who revel in busting people. Or, they cannot teach. Or, you just may not hit it off with your instructor, as hard as you try (I had such an experience in a job.). Unfortunately, you need these people for your success. I'd say poor instructor-student relations contribute heavily to high washout rates, at all airlines and not just Mesa.
Hope that helps some more. In any event, good luck with your choice.
Last edited:
TriDriver
Active member
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2002
- Posts
- 43
All
I think anybody who has read a previous TAB Express thread knows I instruct there in the King Air. I want to reiterate that I am a part-time training captain and am definitely not trying to sell the place to anybody.
I got a PM from cyork 25, and I want to post most of what I said to him. Many of you may know my friend Doug Taylor. Like he says on his forum, he would like to keep things basically public so everyone can benefit from the interchange of info. In that vein, I feel I should post what I told cyork25, so you can learn/respond/flame
The reference to "Brian" has to do with a friend of cyork25 who works for XXXJet (de-identified) Brian recommended he find a local 141 school to train at. Brian thought that TAB wouldn't teach "basic airmanship" and that because of the "canned flt plans" we use a TAB student wouldn't learn basic flight planning. Brian was also concerned about not having a CFI after finishing up at TAB and what do you do if you don't get hired right away by an airline (a legitimate concern and a real problem).
**********************************
Hi cyork25
I got your e-mails, sorry I didn't respond more
quickly, but I was flying at TAB yesterday.
I respect your friend Brian's concerns, but they are
totally unfounded (except for the one about what do you
do if you don't get a regional airline job).
Again, I'm not in sales at TAB, and I want you to do
what's right for you. I'm definitely not trying to get
you to attend. But, here's the reality.
Brian expressed concern about "canned flight plans" and
METARS/TAFS/NOTAMS. I guess he wouldn't like military
trained pilots, because they very rarely file FAA
flight plans!! They only know how to file out of their
base ops on a military flt plan form.
At TAB, you will do more flight planning and filing
than any other place I know of, because you do more
cross country flying than anywhere else. The "canned"
aspect of the flt plan is over-rated by Mitch. When I
went up to Florence, SC yesterday, we did every bit of
flt planning, to include getting all our weather and
NOTAM info. We did performance and weight and balance
planning and reviewed our "canned" flight plan. When we
call the FSS to file, we give the specialist our
"canned number". All this does is cut down on a bunch
of telephone talking. We have definitely gone over all
aspects of the flight plan. When talking with the FSS
specialist, we only have to change anything different,
such as our alternate airport, number of people on
board, fuel, etc.
Brian would be very impressed with our flight planning
before a flight if he saw it. I would say that any TAB
grad could plan and file a XXXXJet flight plan if they
were given the aircraft performance/fuel numbers. They
have experience working in the flight levels and flying
DP's and STARS during their flights at TAB, and they
certainly know all about getting METARS/TAFS/NOTAMS and
filing flight plans with the FSS. We go to big airports
where we get our clearance from Clearance Delivery
before taxi, and we fly out of KDED where we generally
pick up our IFR clearance after takeoff. TAB pilots
know ALL aspects of flt planning and how to work with
ATC in many different situations.
Brian is concerned about "basic airmanship". I think
his concern is that you learn a lot by teaching as a
CFI for several years. This is true. I love
instructing, and have learned a lot teaching people to
fly. But, teaching slow flight, stalls, takeoffs and
landings, etc. in a Cessna 152 for 2 years is not
required to learn "basic airmanship". When you train
for your Pvt and Comm ratings at TAB, you will get all
the same "basic airmanship" training you would get at
any other school.
At TAB, you will learn more "ADVANCED airmanship" than
any other place I know except the military. At TAB you
will fly an 11 hour Familiarization stage of training
in the actual King Air aircraft before you start doing
the 100 hours of LOFT/IOE cross-countrys. In the King
Air, we will go out and do steep turns, slow flight,
stall series, Vmc demos, rapid decompression/emergency
descents, engine out procedures in flight, and
single-engine landings in the actual aircraft. This is
training that virtually no one else (except the
military and some regional airlines) does in such a
high perfomance aircraft. This kind of stuff is done
almost exclusively in simulators these days. I'm pretty
sure XXXXJet doesn't do steep turns, stalls, emerg
descents and single-engine work in their actual
aircraft. You will not be short-changed in any area of
"basic airmanship". I think you will be MUCH better
prepared to enter training at your regional airline
than somebody who has been a Cessna CFI for a couple of
years.
Brian's concern about "what do you do if you don't get
hired when you graduate" is a problem. There are a lot
of King Airs and other high perfomance aircraft out
there, but you will be quite low-time, and the CFI is
the most marketable rating that will get you a job to
earn money (very little as a CFI) while you are waiting
to get hired by a regional airline. I would recommend
to any pilot that loves flying to get a CFI, even just
to do some instructing on the side. With the hours and
knowledge you have from TAB, you can get a CFI fairly
cheaply if you don't get hired right away.
The real good thing about TAB is, Mitch has told me
that if you do not get hired right away and do go out
and get a CFI and work as a flight instructor (or
non-flying job for that matter), TAB will always bring
you back for some sim and King Air flying in the future
to get you spun up for an interview when you get one
later in the future.
If Brian has any other concerns about the program, have
him give me a call. Feel free to forward him this
e-mail if you like. As a Delta pilot, I just do this
part-time because I enjoy mentoring the next generation
of airline pilots such as you. I think we have a
good program at TAB, very similar to the military.
After your "primary training" getting your
Pvt/Comm/ME/Instrument ratings, other school's
"advanced training" is getting you a CFI. You really
aren't learning anything advanced, just how to teach
all the basic stuff you just learned. TAB's "advanced
training" is truly advanced. You learn to fly a
turbine-powered, pressurized, radar equiped airplane
like we fly them in the airlines.
Give me a call or drop me an e-mail any time if you
have other questions. I wish you the best as you start
out your career in the field that I love and has been
so good to me.
I think anybody who has read a previous TAB Express thread knows I instruct there in the King Air. I want to reiterate that I am a part-time training captain and am definitely not trying to sell the place to anybody.
I got a PM from cyork 25, and I want to post most of what I said to him. Many of you may know my friend Doug Taylor. Like he says on his forum, he would like to keep things basically public so everyone can benefit from the interchange of info. In that vein, I feel I should post what I told cyork25, so you can learn/respond/flame
The reference to "Brian" has to do with a friend of cyork25 who works for XXXJet (de-identified) Brian recommended he find a local 141 school to train at. Brian thought that TAB wouldn't teach "basic airmanship" and that because of the "canned flt plans" we use a TAB student wouldn't learn basic flight planning. Brian was also concerned about not having a CFI after finishing up at TAB and what do you do if you don't get hired right away by an airline (a legitimate concern and a real problem).
**********************************
Hi cyork25
I got your e-mails, sorry I didn't respond more
quickly, but I was flying at TAB yesterday.
I respect your friend Brian's concerns, but they are
totally unfounded (except for the one about what do you
do if you don't get a regional airline job).
Again, I'm not in sales at TAB, and I want you to do
what's right for you. I'm definitely not trying to get
you to attend. But, here's the reality.
Brian expressed concern about "canned flight plans" and
METARS/TAFS/NOTAMS. I guess he wouldn't like military
trained pilots, because they very rarely file FAA
flight plans!! They only know how to file out of their
base ops on a military flt plan form.
At TAB, you will do more flight planning and filing
than any other place I know of, because you do more
cross country flying than anywhere else. The "canned"
aspect of the flt plan is over-rated by Mitch. When I
went up to Florence, SC yesterday, we did every bit of
flt planning, to include getting all our weather and
NOTAM info. We did performance and weight and balance
planning and reviewed our "canned" flight plan. When we
call the FSS to file, we give the specialist our
"canned number". All this does is cut down on a bunch
of telephone talking. We have definitely gone over all
aspects of the flight plan. When talking with the FSS
specialist, we only have to change anything different,
such as our alternate airport, number of people on
board, fuel, etc.
Brian would be very impressed with our flight planning
before a flight if he saw it. I would say that any TAB
grad could plan and file a XXXXJet flight plan if they
were given the aircraft performance/fuel numbers. They
have experience working in the flight levels and flying
DP's and STARS during their flights at TAB, and they
certainly know all about getting METARS/TAFS/NOTAMS and
filing flight plans with the FSS. We go to big airports
where we get our clearance from Clearance Delivery
before taxi, and we fly out of KDED where we generally
pick up our IFR clearance after takeoff. TAB pilots
know ALL aspects of flt planning and how to work with
ATC in many different situations.
Brian is concerned about "basic airmanship". I think
his concern is that you learn a lot by teaching as a
CFI for several years. This is true. I love
instructing, and have learned a lot teaching people to
fly. But, teaching slow flight, stalls, takeoffs and
landings, etc. in a Cessna 152 for 2 years is not
required to learn "basic airmanship". When you train
for your Pvt and Comm ratings at TAB, you will get all
the same "basic airmanship" training you would get at
any other school.
At TAB, you will learn more "ADVANCED airmanship" than
any other place I know except the military. At TAB you
will fly an 11 hour Familiarization stage of training
in the actual King Air aircraft before you start doing
the 100 hours of LOFT/IOE cross-countrys. In the King
Air, we will go out and do steep turns, slow flight,
stall series, Vmc demos, rapid decompression/emergency
descents, engine out procedures in flight, and
single-engine landings in the actual aircraft. This is
training that virtually no one else (except the
military and some regional airlines) does in such a
high perfomance aircraft. This kind of stuff is done
almost exclusively in simulators these days. I'm pretty
sure XXXXJet doesn't do steep turns, stalls, emerg
descents and single-engine work in their actual
aircraft. You will not be short-changed in any area of
"basic airmanship". I think you will be MUCH better
prepared to enter training at your regional airline
than somebody who has been a Cessna CFI for a couple of
years.
Brian's concern about "what do you do if you don't get
hired when you graduate" is a problem. There are a lot
of King Airs and other high perfomance aircraft out
there, but you will be quite low-time, and the CFI is
the most marketable rating that will get you a job to
earn money (very little as a CFI) while you are waiting
to get hired by a regional airline. I would recommend
to any pilot that loves flying to get a CFI, even just
to do some instructing on the side. With the hours and
knowledge you have from TAB, you can get a CFI fairly
cheaply if you don't get hired right away.
The real good thing about TAB is, Mitch has told me
that if you do not get hired right away and do go out
and get a CFI and work as a flight instructor (or
non-flying job for that matter), TAB will always bring
you back for some sim and King Air flying in the future
to get you spun up for an interview when you get one
later in the future.
If Brian has any other concerns about the program, have
him give me a call. Feel free to forward him this
e-mail if you like. As a Delta pilot, I just do this
part-time because I enjoy mentoring the next generation
of airline pilots such as you. I think we have a
good program at TAB, very similar to the military.
After your "primary training" getting your
Pvt/Comm/ME/Instrument ratings, other school's
"advanced training" is getting you a CFI. You really
aren't learning anything advanced, just how to teach
all the basic stuff you just learned. TAB's "advanced
training" is truly advanced. You learn to fly a
turbine-powered, pressurized, radar equiped airplane
like we fly them in the airlines.
Give me a call or drop me an e-mail any time if you
have other questions. I wish you the best as you start
out your career in the field that I love and has been
so good to me.
TriDriver
Active member
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2002
- Posts
- 43
bobbysamd
When I got involved in this forum it was mainly to dispel the PFT aspect of the TAB Express training. Yes, you pay for your training, just like you pay for your Pvt/Comm/ME/CFI at any other training facility. At TAB, you just get a different kind of "advanced" training than at a school that says the CFI should be the next step in starting your airline career.
I think now, I'm trying to say maybe there is a different route to take to the airlines. If you get a CFI and instruct for a couple of years, during that time you certainly are developing more air sense, solidifying all the primary training things when you teach them time-after-time to a student, but you aren't necessarlily learning anything "advanced" (turbines, pressurization, weather radar, etc.). In the military, that's the kind of stuff you learn in "advanced" training.
I remember flying with a captain at Pan Am about 15 years ago. During the trip he discussed an effort he had been involved in
with ALPA to establish an "airline training academy". I guess ALPA was considering some kind of ab-initio program or something. Nothing ever came of it, obviously. The merchant marines have a very heavy involvement in the training of people who crew ships, and I think the ALPA program this guy had worked on had many elements patterned after the merchant marine program. I think I recall the guy saying that the merchant marine can not only train their own crews, but they are also have the licensing authority. Of course ALPA is not the aviation licensing authority, the FAA is.
At any rate, maybe a different route to a cockpit seat in an airliner should be considered. Yes, any of the programs at FSI, Pan Am, Comair, TAB, ATA, ATP, Mesa, the new Embry Riddle course, etc., are very expensive. But think of the expense of working as a CFI for $14,000/year for a couple of years before you get your regional airline job making $14,000/year. Maybe if you can get to your regional job a couple years earlier you'll be money ahead.
Another thing to consider is something you have discussed - the washout rate during initial airline training. These days with the airline training records act giving any prospective employer access to your previous training records, YOU DON'T WANT TO FLUNK OUT OF A TRAINING PROGRAM AT AN AIRLINE!!! The lawyers would have a field day if you were involved in an incident and it came out during the investigation that you did not make it through training at another company. Most airlines avoid that potential problem by, well, avoiding it - by not hiring you.
When you get your chance to fly for an airline, you want to be ready. Having flown as a CFI for the last couple years may not have you very prepared for the big game (depending on what level you've been teaching at). TAB tries to prepare you by giving you training almost exactly like you'll experience at a regional airline. You'll be ready when you get your big chance!!
BTW, we had a guy interview with Great Lakes a couple of days ago. TAB sent a roster of people graduating. Great Lakes selected the guy with the lowest time (around 350 hours). Maybe they figured if the lowest time guy was okay when they interviewed him, anybody with more time would be even better. Anyway, I'll let you know if he gets hired or not. Hopefully we'll know something in a week or two.
TriDriver Bob
When I got involved in this forum it was mainly to dispel the PFT aspect of the TAB Express training. Yes, you pay for your training, just like you pay for your Pvt/Comm/ME/CFI at any other training facility. At TAB, you just get a different kind of "advanced" training than at a school that says the CFI should be the next step in starting your airline career.
I think now, I'm trying to say maybe there is a different route to take to the airlines. If you get a CFI and instruct for a couple of years, during that time you certainly are developing more air sense, solidifying all the primary training things when you teach them time-after-time to a student, but you aren't necessarlily learning anything "advanced" (turbines, pressurization, weather radar, etc.). In the military, that's the kind of stuff you learn in "advanced" training.
I remember flying with a captain at Pan Am about 15 years ago. During the trip he discussed an effort he had been involved in
with ALPA to establish an "airline training academy". I guess ALPA was considering some kind of ab-initio program or something. Nothing ever came of it, obviously. The merchant marines have a very heavy involvement in the training of people who crew ships, and I think the ALPA program this guy had worked on had many elements patterned after the merchant marine program. I think I recall the guy saying that the merchant marine can not only train their own crews, but they are also have the licensing authority. Of course ALPA is not the aviation licensing authority, the FAA is.
At any rate, maybe a different route to a cockpit seat in an airliner should be considered. Yes, any of the programs at FSI, Pan Am, Comair, TAB, ATA, ATP, Mesa, the new Embry Riddle course, etc., are very expensive. But think of the expense of working as a CFI for $14,000/year for a couple of years before you get your regional airline job making $14,000/year. Maybe if you can get to your regional job a couple years earlier you'll be money ahead.
Another thing to consider is something you have discussed - the washout rate during initial airline training. These days with the airline training records act giving any prospective employer access to your previous training records, YOU DON'T WANT TO FLUNK OUT OF A TRAINING PROGRAM AT AN AIRLINE!!! The lawyers would have a field day if you were involved in an incident and it came out during the investigation that you did not make it through training at another company. Most airlines avoid that potential problem by, well, avoiding it - by not hiring you.
When you get your chance to fly for an airline, you want to be ready. Having flown as a CFI for the last couple years may not have you very prepared for the big game (depending on what level you've been teaching at). TAB tries to prepare you by giving you training almost exactly like you'll experience at a regional airline. You'll be ready when you get your big chance!!
BTW, we had a guy interview with Great Lakes a couple of days ago. TAB sent a roster of people graduating. Great Lakes selected the guy with the lowest time (around 350 hours). Maybe they figured if the lowest time guy was okay when they interviewed him, anybody with more time would be even better. Anyway, I'll let you know if he gets hired or not. Hopefully we'll know something in a week or two.
TriDriver Bob
bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
TAB
Once more, TriDriver, good comments.
Of course, many foreign airlines train their pilots themselves or through contractors ab initio. Not a moment of flight time is wasted boring holes. So, the end result is a very well-trained, but low-time pilot. It works, obviously, for such carriers as Alitalia, Lufthansa, JAL, ANA and others.
Perhaps the issue to consider is how well a low-timer coming out of a U.S. program can hack airline training. I worked at MAPD and it worked in getting people to Mesa at 300 hours. During those 300 hours they were totally immersed in Mesa. After that, they were on their own. Although they knew Mesa line procedures from MAPD and had ten hours flying 1900s (and were virtually ready to go on the line), handling the pressure of class might be too much for many of them. However, someone more experienced who didn't attend MAPD might do better because of that experience. So, in deciding between MAPD or TAB and instructing, maybe a person should consider if he/she would benefit by accumulating some experience instructing and/or whatever before applying to the commuters.
I also like your comments about the career-killing aspects of washing out of airline training. You are right; being prepared for the training is vital.
Once more, TriDriver, good comments.
Of course, many foreign airlines train their pilots themselves or through contractors ab initio. Not a moment of flight time is wasted boring holes. So, the end result is a very well-trained, but low-time pilot. It works, obviously, for such carriers as Alitalia, Lufthansa, JAL, ANA and others.
Perhaps the issue to consider is how well a low-timer coming out of a U.S. program can hack airline training. I worked at MAPD and it worked in getting people to Mesa at 300 hours. During those 300 hours they were totally immersed in Mesa. After that, they were on their own. Although they knew Mesa line procedures from MAPD and had ten hours flying 1900s (and were virtually ready to go on the line), handling the pressure of class might be too much for many of them. However, someone more experienced who didn't attend MAPD might do better because of that experience. So, in deciding between MAPD or TAB and instructing, maybe a person should consider if he/she would benefit by accumulating some experience instructing and/or whatever before applying to the commuters.
I also like your comments about the career-killing aspects of washing out of airline training. You are right; being prepared for the training is vital.
Last edited:
Tab Express Employee Misrepresentation
While waiting in the lobby of an FBO, I was reading an article in the May 2002 issue of AviationCareer.net magazine. The article titled "Learn From An Airline Captain At TAB Express" got my attention. After reading the entire article, it bothered me to see that an individual that I had known from his previous simulator training business, is represented as a retired Delta Captain with 14,000 hours. Let me assure you that this individual is not retired from Delta and never was a pilot with Delta. I question the 14,000 hours at this point and wonder where he got that many hours. Since he is no longer listed in the FAA pilot certificate-ratings listing, under FAA.gov web-site, I could not verify his highest certificate. The last rating this individual received, that I know of, was FE. Since this is misrepresentation of background for this individual, I then was curious what other information their web-site showed. Looking at all the impressive Captains in management, sales, and flight training, I wondered whether they had inflated certificate and ratings also. To my surprise, most were listed properly, however a few had inflated titles. It seems the Captain title is handed out at Tab Express to impress potential students viewing the TAB Express web-site. I checked the individuals flight certificates and ratings using the FAA.gov web-site, pilot listing. One titled Captain has the required hours, but does not hold an ATP certificate, a requirement to upgrade to Captain in the airlines. This individual is also listed as a CFI, not true according to the FAA.gov web-site.
I now question their flight training for future career airline pilots and whether the listed airline partners are actually hiring their students with such low hours. I consider it a misrepresentation to list individuals a being Captains wheh they are not. If you doubt my findings, then go to the FAA.gov web-site. On the left hand side, look under Airman/Aircraft Registry. You will discover that what I stated is true.
For the future pilots that are looking at flight schools, do not believe all the fancy titles in their web-sites and flight magazine ads. Be sure and visit all schools that you are interested in. This will save you time and money in the long run. Each flight school will offer a little something different than their competitors. Each will state they train pilots for the airlines. Ask for a list of former students that were recently hired. If you visit, try and talk with students, away from the sales person, and get a first hand, no biased opinion. Talk with as many students as possible. Not all students will be happy with their training, so ask around. Most will give an honest opinion of the school and training. Reading pilot message boards is also a good source of information about a potential flight school . Read the messages with a grain of salt.
While waiting in the lobby of an FBO, I was reading an article in the May 2002 issue of AviationCareer.net magazine. The article titled "Learn From An Airline Captain At TAB Express" got my attention. After reading the entire article, it bothered me to see that an individual that I had known from his previous simulator training business, is represented as a retired Delta Captain with 14,000 hours. Let me assure you that this individual is not retired from Delta and never was a pilot with Delta. I question the 14,000 hours at this point and wonder where he got that many hours. Since he is no longer listed in the FAA pilot certificate-ratings listing, under FAA.gov web-site, I could not verify his highest certificate. The last rating this individual received, that I know of, was FE. Since this is misrepresentation of background for this individual, I then was curious what other information their web-site showed. Looking at all the impressive Captains in management, sales, and flight training, I wondered whether they had inflated certificate and ratings also. To my surprise, most were listed properly, however a few had inflated titles. It seems the Captain title is handed out at Tab Express to impress potential students viewing the TAB Express web-site. I checked the individuals flight certificates and ratings using the FAA.gov web-site, pilot listing. One titled Captain has the required hours, but does not hold an ATP certificate, a requirement to upgrade to Captain in the airlines. This individual is also listed as a CFI, not true according to the FAA.gov web-site.
I now question their flight training for future career airline pilots and whether the listed airline partners are actually hiring their students with such low hours. I consider it a misrepresentation to list individuals a being Captains wheh they are not. If you doubt my findings, then go to the FAA.gov web-site. On the left hand side, look under Airman/Aircraft Registry. You will discover that what I stated is true.
For the future pilots that are looking at flight schools, do not believe all the fancy titles in their web-sites and flight magazine ads. Be sure and visit all schools that you are interested in. This will save you time and money in the long run. Each flight school will offer a little something different than their competitors. Each will state they train pilots for the airlines. Ask for a list of former students that were recently hired. If you visit, try and talk with students, away from the sales person, and get a first hand, no biased opinion. Talk with as many students as possible. Not all students will be happy with their training, so ask around. Most will give an honest opinion of the school and training. Reading pilot message boards is also a good source of information about a potential flight school . Read the messages with a grain of salt.
Have been researching ways into commercial flying, and at this point narrowed things down to Comair, ATA, & TAB Express.
TriDriver & Bobby Sands, your comments have been very informative, thanks.
Tri, one thing that caught my eye in the TAB promo. material received today (apart from the costs!) was the repeated reference to dismissal between phases and "additional training at candidate's own expense". While clearly I'm responsible for my check-rides, the number of "gates" and thus opportunities to wash out with lots of money spent and too few hours to be competitive is a little daunting.
As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, all of the schools seem to have their own route -- TAB's is faster and more expensive, Comair's cheaper (relatively), longer (if you stay to CFI), and ATA's is something of a compromise between the two.
While the experience in a King Air (something about them... ) is attractive, the risks seem high. Having a CFI at the end of Comair's course seems a good safety-net. Tri, as a Delta pilot I'd imagine you'd have an interesting perspective on Comair compared to TAB.
Thoughts, comments from anyone?
TriDriver & Bobby Sands, your comments have been very informative, thanks.
Tri, one thing that caught my eye in the TAB promo. material received today (apart from the costs!) was the repeated reference to dismissal between phases and "additional training at candidate's own expense". While clearly I'm responsible for my check-rides, the number of "gates" and thus opportunities to wash out with lots of money spent and too few hours to be competitive is a little daunting.
As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, all of the schools seem to have their own route -- TAB's is faster and more expensive, Comair's cheaper (relatively), longer (if you stay to CFI), and ATA's is something of a compromise between the two.
While the experience in a King Air (something about them... ) is attractive, the risks seem high. Having a CFI at the end of Comair's course seems a good safety-net. Tri, as a Delta pilot I'd imagine you'd have an interesting perspective on Comair compared to TAB.
Thoughts, comments from anyone?
bobbysamd
Well-known member
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- Posts
- 5,710
Running up the TAB
Is it really?? More expensive? Probably, especially in the long run. Faster? I doubt it seriously, given today's hiring environment.
Today's hiring environment is like ten years ago, only worse, I think. In 1992, there were slim pickings indeed for pilots among the commuters. Conversely, the commuters had the pick of the litter, meaning, for your purposes, extremely qualified and experienced pilots. In those days, flight instructors like me, low-timers like you would be and those in between were competing with pilots turned loose during the Eastern and Pan Am closures.
Once more, the place might get you interviews. But there are no guarantees of the job(s) that you are seeking. Which could mean that to find work you'll have to pay another "tab" for CFI ratings. Just consider it carefully from that perspective.
Once more, best of luck with your choice. And keep us posted on where you choose and how it's going.
(emphasis added)
Is it really?? More expensive? Probably, especially in the long run. Faster? I doubt it seriously, given today's hiring environment.
Today's hiring environment is like ten years ago, only worse, I think. In 1992, there were slim pickings indeed for pilots among the commuters. Conversely, the commuters had the pick of the litter, meaning, for your purposes, extremely qualified and experienced pilots. In those days, flight instructors like me, low-timers like you would be and those in between were competing with pilots turned loose during the Eastern and Pan Am closures.
Once more, the place might get you interviews. But there are no guarantees of the job(s) that you are seeking. Which could mean that to find work you'll have to pay another "tab" for CFI ratings. Just consider it carefully from that perspective.
Once more, best of luck with your choice. And keep us posted on where you choose and how it's going.
Last edited:
TriDriver
Active member
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2002
- Posts
- 43
mccann
I wish I did have some good "perspective" on CAA vs. TAB Express, but I really don't know much about the Comair Academy. The "comair invasion" thread on this forum has some good info from philiplane, bobbysamd, and 172driver. It sounds like they've got a very good program at Comair Academy that, according to 172 driver, gives you a pretty good shot at getting hired at Comair.
Unfortunately, as bobbysamd has said, there really are not many gaurantees in this business at this time. Nobody graduating from TAB lately is getting any jobs. We have kept a couple of guys on as primary instructors that had a CFI when they came to TAB.
We've had a number of CFI's come to TAB to get some "advanced" training in CRM/multi-crew ops and turbine time to put on the resume, as well as to try and make sure that when they do get hired by a regional that they are ready for the training they will go through - i.e., they want to make sure they don't wash out of training when they do get their big chance to work for an airline.
As far as your concerns about washing out of TAB training, fergitabowtit!!! It appears you have a helicopter comm/inst. Are you a military trained helicopter pilot? If so, you won't have any trouble at TAB. Nobody with any enthusiasm and desire and a basic flight aptitude will have any trouble.
I'd like to think that TAB might be a quicker way to a regional than getting a CFI and spending a couple years instructing, but right now there is just not a lot of hiring acivity, and the jobs that are available have a lot of high time furloughees and CFI's that are going after them.
If you are a military trained helicopter pilot, you are prime meat for getting hired at a regional. Your total time is a little low, but they value military trained pilots highly. We've had at least one Army RW guy last summer that had about twice as much time as you. He went through the program and got scarfed up by ACA in a flash!
TAB has a couple of programs for pilots that already have some ratings. It's still expensive, but you can get your ME in the Seneca, and then build either 50 or 100 hours of Kingair time, and a bunch of simulator and ground school stuff that I think would help anybody get through their training at a regional when they get the chance.
TAB also has some other interesting stuff brewing. I've seen the correspondence from an FAR 142 outfit that is highly interested in developing a relationship with TAB. Part 142 governs "Training Centers" with advanced training devices and simulators. This outfit does a lot of training for airlines. Many of the pilots that come to them for Boeing and Airbus training are not quite up to speed and ready for the advanced training in the big airplane sims. Apparently they want to link up with TAB to supply some lower end training. This would give TAB the ability to do 142 training and supply pilots who have been through 142 training to any number of regional airlines. I still don't think there are going to be any firm gaurantees of jobs, but I'll try and post more info when we get it.
Best to you, whatever route you take.
TriDriver Bob
I wish I did have some good "perspective" on CAA vs. TAB Express, but I really don't know much about the Comair Academy. The "comair invasion" thread on this forum has some good info from philiplane, bobbysamd, and 172driver. It sounds like they've got a very good program at Comair Academy that, according to 172 driver, gives you a pretty good shot at getting hired at Comair.
Unfortunately, as bobbysamd has said, there really are not many gaurantees in this business at this time. Nobody graduating from TAB lately is getting any jobs. We have kept a couple of guys on as primary instructors that had a CFI when they came to TAB.
We've had a number of CFI's come to TAB to get some "advanced" training in CRM/multi-crew ops and turbine time to put on the resume, as well as to try and make sure that when they do get hired by a regional that they are ready for the training they will go through - i.e., they want to make sure they don't wash out of training when they do get their big chance to work for an airline.
As far as your concerns about washing out of TAB training, fergitabowtit!!! It appears you have a helicopter comm/inst. Are you a military trained helicopter pilot? If so, you won't have any trouble at TAB. Nobody with any enthusiasm and desire and a basic flight aptitude will have any trouble.
I'd like to think that TAB might be a quicker way to a regional than getting a CFI and spending a couple years instructing, but right now there is just not a lot of hiring acivity, and the jobs that are available have a lot of high time furloughees and CFI's that are going after them.
If you are a military trained helicopter pilot, you are prime meat for getting hired at a regional. Your total time is a little low, but they value military trained pilots highly. We've had at least one Army RW guy last summer that had about twice as much time as you. He went through the program and got scarfed up by ACA in a flash!
TAB has a couple of programs for pilots that already have some ratings. It's still expensive, but you can get your ME in the Seneca, and then build either 50 or 100 hours of Kingair time, and a bunch of simulator and ground school stuff that I think would help anybody get through their training at a regional when they get the chance.
TAB also has some other interesting stuff brewing. I've seen the correspondence from an FAR 142 outfit that is highly interested in developing a relationship with TAB. Part 142 governs "Training Centers" with advanced training devices and simulators. This outfit does a lot of training for airlines. Many of the pilots that come to them for Boeing and Airbus training are not quite up to speed and ready for the advanced training in the big airplane sims. Apparently they want to link up with TAB to supply some lower end training. This would give TAB the ability to do 142 training and supply pilots who have been through 142 training to any number of regional airlines. I still don't think there are going to be any firm gaurantees of jobs, but I'll try and post more info when we get it.
Best to you, whatever route you take.
TriDriver Bob
The real good thing about TAB is, Mitch has told me
that if you do not get hired right away and do go out
and get a CFI and work as a flight instructor (or
non-flying job for that matter), TAB will always bring
you back for some sim and King Air flying in the future
to get you spun up for an interview when you get one
later in the future.
Ask Mitch to put into writing. It ain't gonna happen my friend. If you read TAB's ads, you will automatically bet hired when you complete their training programs. What a line of BS. Read between the lines of the contract. Do you see where they promise to bring you back for sim and King Air flying?
that if you do not get hired right away and do go out
and get a CFI and work as a flight instructor (or
non-flying job for that matter), TAB will always bring
you back for some sim and King Air flying in the future
to get you spun up for an interview when you get one
later in the future.
Ask Mitch to put into writing. It ain't gonna happen my friend. If you read TAB's ads, you will automatically bet hired when you complete their training programs. What a line of BS. Read between the lines of the contract. Do you see where they promise to bring you back for sim and King Air flying?
Just to add my .02 cents, I view the training offered by Tab as a matter of opportunity cost. Opportunity cost being the value of something foregone for another choice made.
In my cost analysis, the opportunity cost of becoming 14,000/yr CFI for two years as a means of attracting an employer could potentially be greater than the cost of attending a four month program such as that offered by TAB. Factor in also what the CFI ratings will cost and it is a rather hefty sum; perhaps comparable or greater than TAB. Throw into the mix the foregone income that could have been earned in another endeavour.
Weighing the other side, a student engaged in King Air training and logging PIC time in turbine aircraft on non-revenue loft type routes, may well have lower Total Time but has gained a different experience that won't necessarily be obtained logging a greater number of hours as a CFI.
not selling the place...just a viable "choice" of similar "cost" compared to being an instructor.
In my cost analysis, the opportunity cost of becoming 14,000/yr CFI for two years as a means of attracting an employer could potentially be greater than the cost of attending a four month program such as that offered by TAB. Factor in also what the CFI ratings will cost and it is a rather hefty sum; perhaps comparable or greater than TAB. Throw into the mix the foregone income that could have been earned in another endeavour.
Weighing the other side, a student engaged in King Air training and logging PIC time in turbine aircraft on non-revenue loft type routes, may well have lower Total Time but has gained a different experience that won't necessarily be obtained logging a greater number of hours as a CFI.
not selling the place...just a viable "choice" of similar "cost" compared to being an instructor.
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