Tab Express, Deland, Fla

[DFries]

Does anyone have any info on pricing at Tab express? It seems to be a well kept secret!! I know their 0 time program is about 100 large, but need to find out how much it costs if you already have comm multi and instrument ratings. Any info would be a big help.

 

[wheelsup]

You must go through the program completely again, but on the plus side you'll save a few bucks 'cause you won't have to take the actual checkride again .

BTW, the last part was sarcasim if you didn't catch on right away...

~wheelsup

 

[BoilerUP]

Before this gets interesting, and I KNOW it will, I'd just like to offer two groups of four letters as an alternative:

MAPD PACE

 

[rumpletumbler]

I'm supposed to e-mail my resume to [email protected] but then I need to

Qualify for a Key Bank Loan (with or without a co-signer) to cover all training costs. Fair to good credit is necessary.

and then

Spend 7 to 11 months in the airline training center ($2000/month living expenses withdrawal from Key Bank Loan)

Why isn't there a scratching head smiley?

 

[DFries]

I'm supposed to e-mail my resume to [email protected] but then I need to and then Why isn't there a scratching head smiley?

Have they quoted you a price yet?

 

[rumpletumbler]

Have they quoted you a price yet?

haha no! If I were going to buy a job I'd do it with ASA as they are local to me. I can buy that one for $30,000. However I don't have the level of experience needed to do this kind of job so it would be dangerous for me to be placed in that position. I would be a hazard to myself and others and a hindrance to the Captain. When/IF I finally made Captain myself I would be a dangerous pilot because I had not built the experience that is required to have this job and do it safely. Do yourself a favor and go the road of experience. Don't buy a job that you aren't qualified for.

 

[DFries]

Do you really think that another 300 hrs flying a 152 from the right seat is going to give you the "Right Stuff" for that regional job? Have a Little confidence in your ability to LEARN! The Military has been using the same type of programs since the '30's to train their pilots in the shortest time posible. They have guys with 400 hrs in 1 year in the right seats of c-5's kc-10's b-1's etc. I hardly think you will walk through the door at ASA or TAB, throw the check on the counter and jump in the seat of an RJ or a Beech 1900. I do remember hearing somthing about some sort of training program somwhere in there! I think it involved a month or so in the simulator before you even see the ramp. As far as qualifications, in the last 10 years as an A+P Mechanic for a Major airline, I have found that my systems knowlege is better than most of the FO's on the line and a good majority of the Captains. If you think sitting in the right seat of a twin turboprop, or even a small jet would hinder its operation, then you probably SHOULDN'T be there, and neither should the captain. If these programs werent sucessful, they wouldnt be around. And the Regionals would not come to places like Tab, ASA, Gulfstream, etc. to Recruit. Don't knock a sensible alternative to years of slow time building. If you have the Drive, the ambition, the ability to learn, and of course the MONEY These places are a sensible option.

 

[bobbysamd]

P F T flamebait

The Military has been using the same type of programs since the '30's to train their pilots in the shortest time posible. They have guys with 400 hrs in 1 year in the right seats of c-5's kc-10's b-1's etc. I hardly think you will walk through the door at ASA or TAB, throw the check on the counter and jump in the seat of an RJ or a Beech 1900. I do remember hearing somthing about some sort of training program somwhere in there!

Never mind the fact that the miltary hand-picks its flight candidates. It also takes longer than one year to train a military pilot. These are extremely talented people; I know because I instructed some of their rejects!! I have a lot of time instructing, and these rejects were extremely sharp people. The only talent you need for TAB is the ability to write a check.

And the Regionals would not come to places like Tab, ASA, Gulfstream, etc. to Recruit.

For one thing, Gulfstream is an airline and has its own P-F-T program. Pinnacle is the only known regional that recruits from Gulftream. ASA is a long-standing regional airline that hires off the street along with some FSI and DCA grads. There is no proof that TAB has sent any of its P-F-T pilots to regionals - though it does "guarantee" "interviews."

Don't knock a sensible alternative to years of slow time building. If you have the Drive, the ambition, the ability to learn, and of course the MONEY These places are a sensible option.

. . . if you want to risk being ripped off, blackballed and eschewed by your peers, and want to make your Faustian bargain, it is completely sensible. Aviation is a conservative, traditional business that respects hard work, persistence and "years of slow time building," and rejects and resents end-runners.

There is at least one individual here who accuses anti-P-F-T people like me of envy, seeking pity, being jealous, and a host of the other seven deadly sins. Envious of what? It takes no special ability or qualifications to P-F-T. It only takes money. Anyone with money or a Key loan can buy a job. If you don't have the former you can get the latter. He knows who he is. His sole purpose is to revel in and enjoy others' bad luck and misfortune without providing constructive comment. I won't waste my time answering his posts. Let him accuse, revel and enjoy.

 

[Fallingbrick]

Flame on!!

 

[JD2003]

TAB will steel money from you...don't go there

 

[350DRIVER]

DFries,

Look into the Mesa Pace program and stay far away from Tab. Don't worry about not having the experience once you are on the line. Rumpletumbler is living in some sort of fantasy world, you will not get through training, pass sim check, IOE, etc, if you are not ''prepared", "safe", etc. Mesa has been putting 300 hour pilots in the right seat of jets and props for years and they have had no problems with making the transition at lower flight times. Just do yourself a favor and stay away from Tab and do a board search here. I don't ever recall reading any accident report about a 300 hour pilot at Mesa dinging any piece of metal.

Take some of the above comments with a grain of salt.

good luck

3 5 0

 

[mozzer]

Original posted by JD2003:
"TAB will steel money from you...don't go there"


and your copper, gold, and silver.....make sure you take out your teeth.

 

[bobbysamd]

Do not pick up the PACE

Mesa PACE is the current version of a pay-for-interview program it started about ten years ago. Unlike MAPD, which is a Part 141 flight school in which you earn ratings that are recognized everywhere, PACE provides training esoteric to Mesa Airlines, only. As with MAPD, you get "the interview" at the end, but you are not guaranteed of being hired (nor are you at MAPD). The difference between the two is if you're not hired at Mesa Airlines by way of PACE you walk away with a bunch of worthless time in your logbook for which you paid a bunch of money. With MAPD you have at least earned your ratings and a two-year college degree, so you are leaving with something tangible and universally recognized.

In any event, stay away from TAB and other P-F-T outfits.

 

[rumpletumbler]

Rumpletumbler is living in some sort of fantasy world, you will not get through training, pass sim check, IOE, etc, if you are not ''prepared", "safe", etc.

I can assure you that I could get through all that and pass. I cannot buy the experience that I need to be a safe competent pilot, that I must earn. ANYBODY can fly the f'ing airplane and memorize books/procedures....it is experience that keeps you alive when the arafat hits the fan. I feel like I'm talking to a child, does no one else understand what I'm talking about?

 

[The_Russian]

I understand. They don't like to listen. No matter how many facts you bring to the table.

 

[bentherdunthat]

TAB Express

All I can say about TAB is RUN, run as fast as you can away from there.
I spent a few months there for a little turbine training, not bad training, however the cost is way to high. the folks I met there training were constantly being ripped off. To this day (over 1.5 years) I still am struggling to get money back from the crooks at tab. This is how they get you.....

The first day in class you get the contract, sign it now or leave, no - you cant take it out of the building to review it or let anyone else see it.
Training will always get delayed, costing you more in living expenses.
Broken airplanes, the paint jobs are great but the avionics and general mechanical condition are the worst I have ever seen, hence more delays in mechanicals and delayed checkrides.
The price of the coarse includes an excessive amount of sim time, (these sims are no better than what you have at home)which most people dont need. If you complain about it they will take you off the training schedule until you conform and agree to all the sim time. And if they think you need more time (which they always will) they will make you pay for more time, if you dont agree you are taken off the training sched. until you agree.

I could go on, but this post would be 10 pages long............take a word of advise and run as fast as you can from TAB. spread the word - they are a rip off..........This is why the dont post testimonials from previous students or wont give you names of previous students, oh they will give you 1 the mouthy sales pitchmans son.....

 

[RSixer]

Tab express expliots pilots!

Tab express is marketing on the same idea Gulfstream Academy did before 9/11, take young inexperienced pilots, and make them pay for thier jobs. This is a scam and a dark spot in the aviation job market which needs to be driven out, they would have to hire pilots for the position anyway so why not take people who dont know any better and expliot them, and its not even PIC time to boot. Any job you have to pay for should raise a red flag with anybody, and once the honeymoon wears off, the regret sinks in, but by then its to late, you'll be paying for it long after you leave, think about that. The way things are going now nobody should have to pay for a job outright. If your low time looking for a job to build more, look to the smaller legitimate commuters like Colgan Air, Mesa, Commute Air, they dont pay much but its a legit job and you dont have to pay for it.

 

[bobbysamd]

TAB Review - or - Don't pick up the TAB

All I can say about TAB is RUN, run as fast as you can away from there . . . .

Good review and post above, thank you.

 

[bobbysamd]

Tab

Tab express is marketing on the same idea Gulfstream Academy did before 9/11, take young inexperienced pilots, and make them pay for thier jobs. This is a scam and a dark spot in the aviation job market which needs to be driven out, they would have to hire pilots for the position anyway so why not take people who dont know any better and expliot them, and its not even PIC time to boot. Any job you have to pay for should raise a red flag with anybody . . . .

(emphasis added)

More good comments capturing the essence of P-F-T . . . though there are also more experienced pilots who are so desperate to be pilots and cannot be hired for free that they, too, purchase their jobs.

Once again, it is just a job. One with pride and self-respect does not pay for a job, any job.

 

[JD2003]

I spoke to a friend of mine the other day at TAB. Mitch Mitchelson and Bob Adamo have collected 100 thousand dollars from 100 would be FO's to date and none of them have flown a single hour in the Beech 1900D.

Some have been languishing in Deland Florida for over a year waiting for the airline to start and havn't logged a single hour on the airline. Meanwhile the crooks are collecting interest on all that money.

The owner buy's himself a stinkin yellow ferrari but can't give these people a refund when they want off his sinking ship. They are stuck. Their career hopes smashed. Their credit is maxed so they cannot continue training anywhere else...They will steal your money and your time.

 

[Tar Heel]

I agree - RUN AWAY from that place. So many of us graduates are still struggling to build time up and find that first job and this is when the program was only about 60,000.00 for everything (pre-airline days). Granted a few were lucky enough to get on with Colgan Air and two are at Eagle but in the scheme of things that isn't very much. It's very interesting to me how Bob Adamo was able to get some of the investors an additional $100,000.00 loan through Key Bank under the guise of "training expenses". $100,000 for what roughly amounts to what, say $9,000.00 for type rating and training in a 1900C?! Best of all is they called wanting to update their database with who I work for. I laughed at the poor woman on the other line and hung up the phone.

 

[bobbysamd]

Crunch the numbers

I spoke to a friend of mine the other day at TAB. Mitch Mitchelson and Bob Adamo have collected 100 thousand dollars from 100 would be FO's to date and none of them have flown a single hour in the Beech 1900D.

Are you saying that these students have paid the "TAB" to the tune of $10meg? TEN MILLION DOLLARS?!? At least that's what $100,000.00 x 100 crunches to on my calculator. <gasp>

Some have been languishing in Deland Florida for over a year waiting for the airline to start and havn't logged a single hour on the airline. Meanwhile the crooks are collecting interest on all that money.

The owner buy's himself a stinkin yellow ferrari but can't give these people a refund when they want off his sinking ship. They are stuck. Their career hopes smashed. Their credit is maxed so they cannot continue training anywhere else...They will steal your money and your time.

I hope it works out for your friends, somehow, though they should have asked about P-F-T beforehand. Time to call the District Attorney and/or the State Attorney-General.

How do you spell "fraud?" How you spell "bad faith?" How do you describe "broken promises?" I spell and describe both P-F-T.

 

[Daveman]

<gasp>I hope it works out for your friends, somehow, though they should have asked about P-F-T beforehand. Time to call the District Attorney and/or the State Attorney-General.

How do you spell "fraud?" How you spell "bad faith?" How do you describe "broken promises?" I spell and describe both P-F-T.

Is John Tanner is still the D.A. in Volusia Co.? Deland is the county seat. March down and show them your complaint!
Put these crooks out of business!

 

[Tar Heel]

To become an investor yes, $100,000.00. Supposedly the way it was going to work, if you were an investor then you had more perks. Perhaps more hours, better schedules, etc. What's also funny is that TAB isn't going to officially have a FA (not required per type of aircraft) but they wanted off duty employees to work the ticket counter and ride along on flights (ie pull double duty with less pay).

I also know of several people who've tried getting reimbursed from the company upon completion who have yet to recieve any money back or it took longer than six months. One such individual required legal action before their money was returned. Definitely a shady company. I just hope those people I know there can get something, anything, out of their "investment" before the ship sinks.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

Disagreement with 350Driver:



I have had the opportunity to fly with two MAPD graduates in the last six months. They are three hundred hour pilots with nothing exceptional about them. They really don't know much and are really inexperienced (again, 300 hrs.). A buddy of mine (First name basis who I see twice a month) is a CAPT for Mesa on the CRJ. He has been paired with both of these MAPD grads and has NOTHING good to say about their skills, knowledge, or ability. His exact words were "If anything happens to me then we're all going to die." Actual quote about the 11th hole last month. (Golf)



I am sure you are proud of your school and your airline, I would be too. And you obviously have some reason for self pride given your success. But, please quit making these 300 hr guys and gals to be wonders because I know the truth. And I think you do too, especially by how hard you try to convince everyone else.



300 hour pilots need to be instructing.





Side Note to TAB, Gulfstream, etc.



I did an A36 checkout Thursday with a Gulfstream "Graduate". I will not discuss his flying ability (only 600 hrs), but I will discuss his situation. $34K debt JUST from GA, plus college and real flight training. Only 600 hrs. No multi PIC outside of his checkride. NO JOB, NO INTERVIEWS, and NO PROSPECTS. Doesn't even have a CFI. Now, how is this guy supposed to build enough time to qualify for a 135 gig? Any how many airlines are taking 600-250multi with 249 being SIC?



Think people.



And yes, I do know that this paragraph is riddled with sentence fragments!

 

[The_Russian]

I am on the line, so I don't have much time to post. The Gulfstream "grad" you flew with probably failed out of one or two things or had some behavior problem or something. He also could have failed the interveiw with Pinnacle. Any of these things are his or her own fault not Gulfstream's. They do provide oppurtunity to all. Even if you fail the interview with Airlink you will get an interveiw with Colgan, Commute Air, Lakes, etc. If you mess that up you have no one to be mad at but yourself.

I agree with you on most all of your post. It is very important to be a CFI. i love it and still do it on the side after I finished the GIA FO program and got hired. A lot of these guys say how much better MAPD is than everywhere else but I say it is no different. 300 or 500 hours is the same wonder pilot. TAB, GIA, and MAPD. You still give the airline a bunch of money whether you give it to the airline or their training academy.

Give it a rest all of you. Who cares how you get to the airlines. Some get shafted, some don't. Some (most) shaft themselves. Nobody "deserves" a job over anyone else. Why don't we stop whining about each other and start standing together before we fall. if you pick up the paper, we seem to be tipping over pretty bad.

 

[bobbysamd]

TAB, GIA, and MAPD. You still give the airline a bunch of money whether you give it to the airline or their training academy.

MAPD's 141 program would be distinguished from the other two P-F-T outfits. MAPD's 141 program is a flight school. You give it money and you get your ratings in return. That's its only true promise. Be a good boy/girl and you will get "the interview." As I have written many times, when I instructed at MAPD I had a student who was overbearing and obnoxious, and, as a result, did not get "the interview."

Who cares how you get to the airlines.

I care. Anyone can buy a job. It takes some doing to earn a job. P-F-T opportunities presented themselves to me years ago, but I refused. Once again, bottom line, it is still just a job. Once again, I am old-school. I never felt myself so desperate for work that I saw no choice but to buy a job. There is always work to be found without having to buy it.

Russian, I know your story and I know you've worked hard in aviation - which is why I never understood why you went through Gulfstream. I know you said you did it because you wanted to. I do appreciate your objective comments about Gulfstream.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Those programs suck. I've flown with some kids and grown-ups from Gulfstream and the ex-Captains are the only ones worth a sh1t. The FO's for the most part have minimum skills and are virtually useless. They all come across like I (the Capt.) am there to help them along, and that flying to minimums is "cool". I've got to say that the PFT mentality is dangerous. I've been flying with one Gulfstreamer who is so useless, and I try to teach [them] what I can, but there is this underlying mentality that- you are here for my benefit, and I'm going to Fedex because its "cool".

Folks, if you want to survive in aviation, this is not the approach to come with. You are a danger to my passengers, me, and my living. Good day.

 

[mayday1]

then why does GIA work?

First off, I do not work at Gulfstream, nor do I go there.

However, my question is, then why does this program seem to work well for many who go there? I've done some research -- called GIA, spoke with their instructors, recruiters, etc. According to GIA, there is an approximate washout rate during airline training (at Pinnacle, other regionals, etc.) of ~25% for your typical new hire. GIA grads only average a 3-4% washout rate at the regionals -- If this is true, this is a big difference, and more importantly, a big cost issue for the airlines. I know everyone will respond with the, "well, this is the sales and marketing line Gulfstream is feeding prospective students." Maybe so, maybe not... if it's not true, and GIA grads do not perform any better than others, why would airlines even bother with these low time pilots who do not meet their official minimums? Others may respond that there is some financial connection between GIA and Pinnacle, Colgan, Trans States, etc. -- please do so only if you have some facts or evidence that this is the case. I tend to doubt there is a kickback to the airlines that hire from GIA, but I could be wrong.

Oakum boy... I'm relatively inexperienced in aviation, but I've heard a number of captains complain about inept or incompetent FOs. I don't doubt your experience, but I wouldn't indict the entire airline/program because of a few bad products.

 

[bobbysamd]

Post-Gulfstream interviews

I've done some research -- called GIA, spoke with their instructors, recruiters, etc. According to GIA, there is an approximate washout rate during airline training (at Pinnacle, other regionals, etc.) of ~25% for your typical new hire. GIA grads only average a 3-4% washout rate at the regionals -- If this is true, this is a big difference, and more importantly, a big cost issue for the airlines.

That line, coming from a Gulfstream "career consultant" most certainly is objective information - not.

[W]hy would airlines even bother with these low time pilots who do not meet their official minimums?

How do you know how much these airlines bother with these people? How many are really hired after interview? All Gulfstream and similar "outfits" "promise" is an interview. How does one know this "interview" is conducted in good faith? I would submit that, depending on the candidate, a significant number of these interviews are not at all conducted in good faith.

As far as washout rates are concerned, it does not cost airlines all that much money to bring in hoardes of hopefuls for class - just as it costs them virtually nothing to interview them. I don't know Pinnacle's policy for compensating pilots in class, but based on other regionals, very little, if any, benefits, such as per diem, etc., is given to new-hires in class.

(I would also submit that many airline interviews conducted at these and other airlines with more experienced street applicants are also not conducted in good faith but are conducted to check off EEOC and ADEA squares only.)

Get us some objective information. With few exceptions, alternative airline hiring "programs" such as TAB, etc. never make good on their promises.