Tab Express, Deland, Fla

[Tar Heel]

I agree - RUN AWAY from that place. So many of us graduates are still struggling to build time up and find that first job and this is when the program was only about 60,000.00 for everything (pre-airline days). Granted a few were lucky enough to get on with Colgan Air and two are at Eagle but in the scheme of things that isn't very much. It's very interesting to me how Bob Adamo was able to get some of the investors an additional $100,000.00 loan through Key Bank under the guise of "training expenses". $100,000 for what roughly amounts to what, say $9,000.00 for type rating and training in a 1900C?! Best of all is they called wanting to update their database with who I work for. I laughed at the poor woman on the other line and hung up the phone.

 

[bobbysamd]

Crunch the numbers

I spoke to a friend of mine the other day at TAB. Mitch Mitchelson and Bob Adamo have collected 100 thousand dollars from 100 would be FO's to date and none of them have flown a single hour in the Beech 1900D.

Are you saying that these students have paid the "TAB" to the tune of $10meg? TEN MILLION DOLLARS?!? At least that's what $100,000.00 x 100 crunches to on my calculator. <gasp>

Some have been languishing in Deland Florida for over a year waiting for the airline to start and havn't logged a single hour on the airline. Meanwhile the crooks are collecting interest on all that money.

The owner buy's himself a stinkin yellow ferrari but can't give these people a refund when they want off his sinking ship. They are stuck. Their career hopes smashed. Their credit is maxed so they cannot continue training anywhere else...They will steal your money and your time.

I hope it works out for your friends, somehow, though they should have asked about P-F-T beforehand. Time to call the District Attorney and/or the State Attorney-General.

How do you spell "fraud?" How you spell "bad faith?" How do you describe "broken promises?" I spell and describe both P-F-T.

 

[Daveman]

<gasp>I hope it works out for your friends, somehow, though they should have asked about P-F-T beforehand. Time to call the District Attorney and/or the State Attorney-General.

How do you spell "fraud?" How you spell "bad faith?" How do you describe "broken promises?" I spell and describe both P-F-T.

Is John Tanner is still the D.A. in Volusia Co.? Deland is the county seat. March down and show them your complaint!
Put these crooks out of business!

 

[Tar Heel]

To become an investor yes, $100,000.00. Supposedly the way it was going to work, if you were an investor then you had more perks. Perhaps more hours, better schedules, etc. What's also funny is that TAB isn't going to officially have a FA (not required per type of aircraft) but they wanted off duty employees to work the ticket counter and ride along on flights (ie pull double duty with less pay).

I also know of several people who've tried getting reimbursed from the company upon completion who have yet to recieve any money back or it took longer than six months. One such individual required legal action before their money was returned. Definitely a shady company. I just hope those people I know there can get something, anything, out of their "investment" before the ship sinks.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

Disagreement with 350Driver:



I have had the opportunity to fly with two MAPD graduates in the last six months. They are three hundred hour pilots with nothing exceptional about them. They really don't know much and are really inexperienced (again, 300 hrs.). A buddy of mine (First name basis who I see twice a month) is a CAPT for Mesa on the CRJ. He has been paired with both of these MAPD grads and has NOTHING good to say about their skills, knowledge, or ability. His exact words were "If anything happens to me then we're all going to die." Actual quote about the 11th hole last month. (Golf)



I am sure you are proud of your school and your airline, I would be too. And you obviously have some reason for self pride given your success. But, please quit making these 300 hr guys and gals to be wonders because I know the truth. And I think you do too, especially by how hard you try to convince everyone else.



300 hour pilots need to be instructing.





Side Note to TAB, Gulfstream, etc.



I did an A36 checkout Thursday with a Gulfstream "Graduate". I will not discuss his flying ability (only 600 hrs), but I will discuss his situation. $34K debt JUST from GA, plus college and real flight training. Only 600 hrs. No multi PIC outside of his checkride. NO JOB, NO INTERVIEWS, and NO PROSPECTS. Doesn't even have a CFI. Now, how is this guy supposed to build enough time to qualify for a 135 gig? Any how many airlines are taking 600-250multi with 249 being SIC?



Think people.



And yes, I do know that this paragraph is riddled with sentence fragments!

 

[The_Russian]

I am on the line, so I don't have much time to post. The Gulfstream "grad" you flew with probably failed out of one or two things or had some behavior problem or something. He also could have failed the interveiw with Pinnacle. Any of these things are his or her own fault not Gulfstream's. They do provide oppurtunity to all. Even if you fail the interview with Airlink you will get an interveiw with Colgan, Commute Air, Lakes, etc. If you mess that up you have no one to be mad at but yourself.

I agree with you on most all of your post. It is very important to be a CFI. i love it and still do it on the side after I finished the GIA FO program and got hired. A lot of these guys say how much better MAPD is than everywhere else but I say it is no different. 300 or 500 hours is the same wonder pilot. TAB, GIA, and MAPD. You still give the airline a bunch of money whether you give it to the airline or their training academy.

Give it a rest all of you. Who cares how you get to the airlines. Some get shafted, some don't. Some (most) shaft themselves. Nobody "deserves" a job over anyone else. Why don't we stop whining about each other and start standing together before we fall. if you pick up the paper, we seem to be tipping over pretty bad.

 

[bobbysamd]

TAB, GIA, and MAPD. You still give the airline a bunch of money whether you give it to the airline or their training academy.

MAPD's 141 program would be distinguished from the other two P-F-T outfits. MAPD's 141 program is a flight school. You give it money and you get your ratings in return. That's its only true promise. Be a good boy/girl and you will get "the interview." As I have written many times, when I instructed at MAPD I had a student who was overbearing and obnoxious, and, as a result, did not get "the interview."

Who cares how you get to the airlines.

I care. Anyone can buy a job. It takes some doing to earn a job. P-F-T opportunities presented themselves to me years ago, but I refused. Once again, bottom line, it is still just a job. Once again, I am old-school. I never felt myself so desperate for work that I saw no choice but to buy a job. There is always work to be found without having to buy it.

Russian, I know your story and I know you've worked hard in aviation - which is why I never understood why you went through Gulfstream. I know you said you did it because you wanted to. I do appreciate your objective comments about Gulfstream.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Those programs suck. I've flown with some kids and grown-ups from Gulfstream and the ex-Captains are the only ones worth a sh1t. The FO's for the most part have minimum skills and are virtually useless. They all come across like I (the Capt.) am there to help them along, and that flying to minimums is "cool". I've got to say that the PFT mentality is dangerous. I've been flying with one Gulfstreamer who is so useless, and I try to teach [them] what I can, but there is this underlying mentality that- you are here for my benefit, and I'm going to Fedex because its "cool".

Folks, if you want to survive in aviation, this is not the approach to come with. You are a danger to my passengers, me, and my living. Good day.

 

[mayday1]

then why does GIA work?

First off, I do not work at Gulfstream, nor do I go there.

However, my question is, then why does this program seem to work well for many who go there? I've done some research -- called GIA, spoke with their instructors, recruiters, etc. According to GIA, there is an approximate washout rate during airline training (at Pinnacle, other regionals, etc.) of ~25% for your typical new hire. GIA grads only average a 3-4% washout rate at the regionals -- If this is true, this is a big difference, and more importantly, a big cost issue for the airlines. I know everyone will respond with the, "well, this is the sales and marketing line Gulfstream is feeding prospective students." Maybe so, maybe not... if it's not true, and GIA grads do not perform any better than others, why would airlines even bother with these low time pilots who do not meet their official minimums? Others may respond that there is some financial connection between GIA and Pinnacle, Colgan, Trans States, etc. -- please do so only if you have some facts or evidence that this is the case. I tend to doubt there is a kickback to the airlines that hire from GIA, but I could be wrong.

Oakum boy... I'm relatively inexperienced in aviation, but I've heard a number of captains complain about inept or incompetent FOs. I don't doubt your experience, but I wouldn't indict the entire airline/program because of a few bad products.

 

[bobbysamd]

Post-Gulfstream interviews

I've done some research -- called GIA, spoke with their instructors, recruiters, etc. According to GIA, there is an approximate washout rate during airline training (at Pinnacle, other regionals, etc.) of ~25% for your typical new hire. GIA grads only average a 3-4% washout rate at the regionals -- If this is true, this is a big difference, and more importantly, a big cost issue for the airlines.

That line, coming from a Gulfstream "career consultant" most certainly is objective information - not.

[W]hy would airlines even bother with these low time pilots who do not meet their official minimums?

How do you know how much these airlines bother with these people? How many are really hired after interview? All Gulfstream and similar "outfits" "promise" is an interview. How does one know this "interview" is conducted in good faith? I would submit that, depending on the candidate, a significant number of these interviews are not at all conducted in good faith.

As far as washout rates are concerned, it does not cost airlines all that much money to bring in hoardes of hopefuls for class - just as it costs them virtually nothing to interview them. I don't know Pinnacle's policy for compensating pilots in class, but based on other regionals, very little, if any, benefits, such as per diem, etc., is given to new-hires in class.

(I would also submit that many airline interviews conducted at these and other airlines with more experienced street applicants are also not conducted in good faith but are conducted to check off EEOC and ADEA squares only.)

Get us some objective information. With few exceptions, alternative airline hiring "programs" such as TAB, etc. never make good on their promises.