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T-Tail design advantages?

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FSIGRAD

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
253
I'm trying to figure out the advantages/disadvantages to T-tail aircraft design. I have an article that states T-tails became popular in the 1980's due to a 1970's NASA study that pointed out the configuration was ideal for spin recovery (Horizontal stablizer doesn't blank out the rudder in a spin) however this adds disadvantages of extra weight and complexity. It also said that T-tails have a modernistic appearance and enthusiasm for them is greater from the sales department than the engineering department.
I'm pretty sure there has to be more to the pro's and con's argument, T-tail airplanes that come to mind Seminole, BAE-146, C-141 Starlifter all seem to be short field planes and not ones that would be particularly conducive to spin recovery.

Any one have any ideas?
 
You get less pitch changes with changes of power since the t-tail is in totally uninterrupted airflow. You get no debris damage from the prop blast. You won't get as big of pitch changes when extending/retracting flaps. I think the biggest reason the T-tail is more popular is because it in the free airstream.

These are some of my ideas.
 
Here's what I remember about what they told us in ground school on the 1900.

Advantages:
-increases cg range to allow for a wider range of payload carrying options.

-out of propeller slips stream, so less metal fatigue.

Disadvantages:
-like you said it requires a heavier, more complex structure, that adds weight. Although I'm guessing that has been controlled somewhat in modern times with the increased use of composites.

-another disadvantage that they didn't tell us all about for a long time(at least where I worked) is tail stall susceptibility. After the ATR Roselawn, and Comair Detroit accidents, I guess NASA did a study on icing characteristics in turboprop aircraft. In the video we saw in recurrent, I think they used a DHC-6, although I'm not sure. Anyways, NASA concluded that the turboprops most susceptible to tail stalls are those with unpowered flight controls(no hydraulic assist), large flap deflections, and of course T-tails. They attached all of these little strips to the tailplane to show you what happens. The airflow on the tailplane reverses, similar I think to what happened with the ailerons on the ATR. They had some nasty stalls on that video, and lost quite a bit of altitude on a few. The fun part is that the recovery is counter intuitive to everything we are generally taught about stalls: basically you have to increase pitch and reduce power.

While I have never heard of a tail stall incident in the mighty Beech, I never wanted to be the first so this video certainly got my attention. Especially since the carrier I worked for doesn't extend the flaps from 17 to 35 until the field is in sight on a IAP, which could be as low as 100 feet above TDZE-not a lot of altitude or time for a recovery! A little over three years ago, going into DEN on the ILS to 35L, our aircraft and a UAL 757 on the parallel picked up severe ice on the approach(airport closed after our arrivals). The rumours about the 1900 being a truck in ice are true, but it certainly doesn't fly the same! I sure would have liked to have known about all that tail stall stuff before I shot a minimums approach in stuff like that, not only for risk assessment but because that recovery procedure is so counterintuitive that you want to mentally remind yourself of it.
 
Also, some business jets' wings are so low that wing mounted engines would be dangerously close to the ground. One these planes, the t-tail is there out of necessity.
 
Disadvantage..............

I know from flying a PA28-201T (Arrow T-Tail) in the flare the nose became very heavy. This was due to the high angle of attack the main wing blocked air flow to the tail. This resulted more back force.

At least that is how it was explained to me.
 
T-Tail disadvantage

I think another disadvantage may be lesser elevator authority because it is out of the propeller slipstream. I know a lot of t-tail aircraft are harder to land because the elevator loses authority in the flare.

It is true that the sales department loves t-tail aircraft. I remember that in the 80s a lot of airplanes that had the standard configuration were converted to t-tails, e.g. some Arrows.
 
disadvantage

I've only flown a T-Tail arrow, and it was a beast at the controls, they were really heavy. I was also told by my chief flight instructor that the T-Tail design was simply a sales pitch in the 70's and 80's.
 
That video which Marko Remius references is I believe the same one that is available from Sporty's Pilot Shop for only $5.00. I bought this, and it is excellent. WELL worth the money (it was 5.00 a few years ago, but I doubt the price has changed much). It is produced by NASA Glenn Research Center and is simply called "Tailplane Icing". There is another video also produced by NASA (and also for only $5.00) called "Icing for Regional and Corporate Pilots." Also well worth the small investment.
 
Since I fly the C-5, the largest T-tail of 'em all, I can give you my .02....First, the T-tail gives the elevators clean air as opposed to the low tail configuration. Second, the moment arm of a T-tail is higher. Next, a T-tail design aids the use of aft cargo doors for roll-off and airdrop missions (I know the C-130 is an exception, but the 130 is an ancient design and built like a tank). Finally, and most importantly, it allows the Air Force airlifters to use our beloved "T-tail mafia" phrase.
 
I should know better than to post on a technical subject without reviewing my old texts, but here goes anyway.

The T-tail does have a couple of advantages, and also some disadvantages. The thing to remember is that 99% of the design/aero/engineering decisions made in designing an
aircraft are compromises. The T-tail is used when its advantage outweighs it's disadvantages. I have also observed that there are very few commercial aircraft that use the T-tail and the ones that do have a fairly obvious reason for doing so. Aircraft that were intended to be sold to non commercial users seem to use the T-tail more as a device to give them market differentiation.

With that out of the way, let me attempt to give some concrete answers.

Advantages: it gets the tail out of turbulent air, it allows for a longer tail arm (allowing smaller surface area, and therefore, less drag), it has some potential for improved stall recovery, and it looks cool.

Disadvantages: reduced control authority for prop planes (it's out of the propwash) , increased complexity for the control linkages, heavier vertical stab required because vertical stab must carry/transfer the pitch loads to the tailcone, heavier vertical stab required becouse the vert. stab must also transfer twisting loads to the tailcone, heavier tailcone required because the aero forces developed twist the tail (especially in the case of a high G rolling pullup)

T-tails get used most often when other design criteria force the designer to use them. For example, the Learjet was designed around a pre-existing wing and that wing had no provision for mounting engines, therefore they had to mount the engines on the tail and therefore the T-tail worked best.
The DC9 would be another example of engine placement dictating tail style. The 727 uses the T-tail for somewhat the same reason, it was easier to fit to the top of the tail and they already had to make the vertical stab extra wide in order to accomodate the third engine. The ATR turboprop aircraft use a T-tail partly because it allows the horizontal tail to be installed slightly farther away from aerodynamic center of the wing and allows for a slighty smaller tail (the tail volume issue) I'm not totally certain, but I think the B1900 uses a T-tail for the simple reason that the B200 used one and the engineers determined that they would be able to get what they wanted for the 1900 by modifying that existing tail.( if they had used the B100/B99 tail, they wouldn't have had any room on the tail to add on the stub stabs and the high aspect ratio fences that drop down from underneath the stab would have presented a tail strike problem)

It is interesting to note that the DC9 sends bleed air to heat the leading edge of the horizontal stab, yet the 737's tail is completely unprotected. I understand that the issue is not one of tail stall, it seems that the hot jetblast prevents ice from forming on the 73's horizontal stab.

regards,
8N
 
8N: The DC10 also lacks horizontal stab de-ice if I am not mistaken. Maybe somebody who has flown these types can clue us in on why Douglas felt de-icing the horizontal stab.

If I had to venture a guess, it would be a combination of the high sweepbank angle and operational characteristics of the airplane (speed & higher total air temp) that result in tailplane de-ice not being necessary.

As for T-Tail arrows, yes that was just a marketing gimmick to make the airplane sexier. Compare the prices of the Arrow IV and the Arrow III and one quickly realizes the III is the more desireable airframe.
 
T Tails do not have good natural stall warning characteristics. With a normal Hoz Stab like a B-707, disturbed airflow over the wings give a rumble to the stab. T Tails won't necessarily. Also with T Tails, in a deep stall the Hoz Stab can become blanked out and result in a "superstall" and lack of stab authority. Hence, T Tail airplanes normally have stick shakers and stick pushers when approaching the stall AOA, to compensate for the lack of natural stall warning. As point of fact however, most modern conventional Hoz Stab airplanes have at least stick shakers for additional warning.
 
This accident happened in a Trama-hawk. I think this investigation is still in the factual procedures, so the final procedures won't be out until a few months from now. Nonetheless, it's a pretty good accident scenario to learn from. The private pilot applicant of this ride was the father of a friend of mine - and the chedkride pilot was "over qualified", if that makes any sense at all. So, if at all in the least bit interested, check it out.

Here's the website:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X19701&key=1

-airnik
 
T-tails do rumble and shake when near critical AOA at least in the BE76 and PA44-180 providing a good stall warning. I remember way back when I was doing my MEL training, my instructor was approaching stall and told me to look back at the H-tail. It was shaking like crazy which was amazing. As far as T-tails on the heavy metal, maybe it is high enough to be outside of the cavitated air during approach to stalls. I don't remember any significant buffeting in the BE1900D (T-tail) during my training since we would recover usually at the first sign of the stall horn, mushiness, buffeting whichever occurs first.
 
Airnik,

No offense to your friend, but that crash appears to be the classic stall/spin/crash/burn and had little to do with it being a T-tail airplane. No matter what you fly if you unintentionaly spin it too close to the ground you are toast.
 
Cornelius - I should have clarified that my comments refer to swept wing heavys. My light airplane experience very limited and as point of fact, I have not personally flown swept wing heavies with T Tails. Only conventional swept and VG wing heavy aircraft with conventional hoz stabs.

My comments refer to approach to stall only. Fulling stalling a swept wing heavy, even for practice, is very risky.
 
Seminole T-tails

I, too, remember showing my Seminole students the shaking T-tail. It was a standard part of training. Now that I think about, we discussed t-tails quite a bit during training. When I was teaching multi, the PTS did not require full stalls.
 
you should do a full stall in a traumahawk. The t-taip bangs and pops quite loudly, it also oscillated in a twisting motion, the horizontal stab would oscillate up to 5-10 degrees. Interestingly enough a tomahawk hasnt lost a tail i know of doing stalls. the crappy spin characteristics are moslty due to the airfoil design, the NACA GA(W)-1 airfoil.
 
Caveman,

This is all second-hand information, as the final report isn't out yet, but from what I understand when you pull the yoke out in the Tomahawk, you somewhat have to pull the yoke down first, then push the yoke in, to break the stall (and secondary stall if one has developed from the yoke being "stuck"). I'm not sure myself, as I have no time in that a/c. But I noticed it a little bit even in the Arrow IV. Anyways, I think the NTSB is looking into this more.
 
The primary advantage to the T-tail design (and the cruciform design) is a greater elevator moment and an expanded CG range.

A t-tail configuration in some cases removes the horizontal stab from airlfow interference of the wing, though not completely.

The t-tail is disadvantaged in being unable to provide an induced download from downwash from the wing.

T-tails typically suffer from deep-stall considerations separate from swept wing or other issues; the most obvious being a blanketing effect on the horizontal stab by the main airfoil (wing) during the stall, and a loss of pitching authority. Additionally, as the t-tail doesn't rely on a download from the main airfoil during normal operations, the introduction of download during high angle of attack operations may drive the stall deeper, or make it unrecoverable. The learjet is a good case in point.

Someone had mentioned the C-130; while I'd disagree that it's antiquated (it's the longest production run of any aircraft ever built, and is still being built), there was no need for a t-tail. That airplane has a different susceptability, which is the fin stall; a type of aerodynamic rudder reversal at high angles of attack on the rudder; high sideslip angles. Elevator authority is never a problem, the airplane has good stall characertistics, and it has a very large CG range. It also utilizes airflow fromthe inboard engines, and a download in most cases on the vertical stab.

On most light aircraft, the T-tail is entirely cosmetic. On several airplanes, the tail was moved higher to boost sales, not for reasons of aerodynamic purity.

The t-tail does tend to enhance spin entry and recovery authority. In many cases, greater rudder authority exists due to lack of interference by the horizontal stab. In designs with neutral inertia, this is important. In wing loaded aircraft, the elevator is the primary recovery instrument from a spin, and the placement of the elevator atop the tail enhances this in some designs, and can be detrimental in others. (On fuselage loaded aircraft, of course, the aileron is the primary spin recovery control, and the placement of the horizontal stab is of little consequence).

T-tails tend to require increased armature and rigging to effect control. The frequent use of jackscrew assemblies, additional bellcranks, runs of control rod or cable, etc, leave more vulnerability in the system, increase weight, and require heavier materials to retain strength with the additional arm and moment imposed by loads atop the vertical stab.

In some cases, t-tails were put there because there was simply no other place to put them. The 0V-10 is such an example. (although that design is a cross-tail, rather than a t, but is still mounted high on the vertical stabs).

Finally, you must look at the needs of each design on an individual basis. There is no blanket rule for the use of the t-tail. There are a great many variables, and each design is unique. It is impossible to state that the t-tail is good or bad; one must stick to a particular design to make such observations. In many cases, the use of the t-tail may be the best compromise for that particular design. Remember that any aircraft design is nothing more than a series of interrelated factors, and compromises. Many times, features of a design are not used because they are the best feature of a superior feature, but a good compromise.

Then again, it's hard to pay for a compromise unless it sells. Often the design features do nothing more than sell the airplane. Such is the case with a lot of T-tails.
 
>>>>it's(the c-130) the longest production run of any aircraft ever built, and is still being built.

Actually, the Beechcraft Bonanza and the Antonov AN-2 started production well before the C-130 (1947, for both designs, if memory serves me correctly) and the Bonanza I know is still being produced. I'm less sure of the AN-2, but they were still being built a few years ago.

Regards
 
How about longest continuous production run?

Longest continuous production run with one factory paint scheme? (now offered in at least two).

How about the longest continuous production run with a minimum of six guys at any one given time on the airframe assembly line, all named Ed?

I can't malign the AN-2, much as I'd like to do so. I may be flying one around to airshows and other such places, soon.

How about longest continuous production airplane that the tail doesn't fall off of with regularity?

How about the longest continuous production airplane not regularly purchased by people with far more dollars than sense (though it would be a great mission, one never hears the herc intentionally referred-to as a "lawyer killer.").

How about this; line up the various airplanes that have been in production the longest, end to end. See which line is the longest.

Is anybody else bored to tears?
 
AVBUG, sorry if you took offense to my C-130 comment. I love that plane (especially since my dad was a loadmaster on it during Farmgate).
As far as T-tail deep stall, even the C-5 has this problem. I've given it a shot in the sim a few times and its entirely possible to lose complete elevator authority due to the wing masking clean air during a deep stall.
 
No offense it all. The herc has a face only a mother could love, but it was a worker. I started to lose my affinity for it when the wings started coming off.

I promise not to make any jokes about the C-5 flying nose low over corn fields...:)
 
Wow! Great posts! A lot of very good information and a lot of points I never would of considered. I was able to put together a solid brief on T-tail design just from this thread. (However, my head is still buried in Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators trying to figure out what the heck is neutral interia?)

Thanks again!
 
The mathmatical formula for spin recovery is Ix (moment of inertia in roll), multiplied by Iy (the moment of inertia in pitch, divided by M (mass) times b2 (wing span squared).

This formula is used to predict spin recovery behavior. If the formula produces a value within plus or 50 points of zero, the aircraft is said to have neutral inertia, generally speaking. The Cessna 150, Citabria, etc, fit into this category. Typical spin recovery input will depend on rudder, followed by elevators at neutral or slightly forward. Aileron is generally not used due to ineffectiveness, or counterproductivity in the recovery.
 

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