Swissair 111 CVR finally made public

[dojetdriver]

I wonder if they would have made the airport it they didnt worry about dumping fuel!

I thought I saw something where some invevestigators came to a conclusion on this. If they had turned to YHZ right away, not tried to dump, and make the overweight landing there would have been something like 10 minutes (or more) to get everybody off before the plane burned up.

 

[Jim Smyth]

I wasnt trying to second guess them at all. I have no fuel dumping experience and have never been to Halifax to where I know there runway layout/length. I assume the crew didn't understand the severity of the fire that had started or they would have made a straight line to the airport. This was the first time I heard first hand what had happened and it seems they were vectoring them around for fuel issues. Very sad indeed............Valuejet also taught me a very valuable lesson when theres smoke/fire anywhere on the airplane. Sort it out on the ground!

 

[ivauir]

I've had smoke 5 times and never a serious fire. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone. It would be easy to have these kind of experiences cloud our judgment. Without playing armchair quarterback we can honor the Swiss air crew by learning from their fate....

 

[ThreeGreens]

The ValuJet crash taught us the lesson that any smoke in the cockpit = land immediately. That's what's so confounding about the Swissair pilot's decision.

Did you even read the final report ?
They had electrical problems before they even had the fire. Once the fire was identified, it spreaded rapidly. Would you right away associate an electrical problem with a fire ? Now I do, but thanks to their experience.

Read the report before drawing such easy conclusion.

 

[TWA Dude]

Read the report before drawing such easy conclusion.

I can't believe you're arguing about this. I read the report several years ago. Obviously they didn't know how serious their problem was until it was too late. Same thing for the Valuejet crash. The Swissair guys already made the decision for a precautionary landing but delayed it for unecessary fuel dumping. I flew a plane last week which had logged an overweight landing after an air turn-back due to all three lavs not functioning. My point being that an overweight landing isn't a big deal and that fuel-dumping should be reserved for times when conditions (like gear/hydraulic/brake problems or runway conditions) require it.

 

[igneousy2]

Swiss Air, Valu Jet, Alaska all have taught us to get the airplane on the ground right now. An airplane with smoke/flgiht control problems with paying pax on board is not the time to be troubleshooting.

As far as an overweight landing...If we are talking structual limits it is NOT a big deal. It is a minor inspection and a logbook entry....in any case who cares, no matter how overweight you are you will still be okay...so you trash the main gear strut on landing...whatever.

If we are talking performance limits - remember all the fudge factors (60% - no reverse) in the calculations and the fact that a lot of times the limitations are because of the go-around, not the runway itself.

On an airplane the size of an MD-11 losing 10,000 - 20,000 pounds of landing weight doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference. I would have dumped fuel but only until I needed to turn it off to land.

I was shocked at this accident because they had smoke that was not obvious where it was coming from (i.e. smoldering cigarrete left in lav). Smoke is a no brainer...you land the plane...I don't care how heavy you are, where it's coming from, etc.

I am not sorry I am second guessing these pilots - I second guess every accident - I second guess every decision I make - I think it makes me a better pilot - Heaven forbid I get killed in an accident, I hope that every pilot scrutinizes everything I did so they can learn from it.

Later

 

[mule]

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/1998/a98h0003/01report/03conclusions/rep3_03_00.asp

See #5...

 

[TWA Dude]

Thanks for the link, Mule.

4. The flight crew were trained to dump fuel without restrictions and to land the aircraft in an overweight condition in an emergency situation, if required.

5. From any point along the Swissair Flight 111 flight path after the initial odour in the cockpit, the time required to complete an approach and landing to the Halifax International Airport would have exceeded the time available before the fire-related conditions in the aircraft cockpit would have precluded a safe landing.

I stand corrected and retract my statements. I didn't remember this.

 

[PAPA FOX!]

Swiss Air, Valu Jet, Alaska all have taught us to get the airplane on the ground right now. An airplane with smoke/flgiht control problems with paying pax on board is not the time to be troubleshooting.

As far as an overweight landing...If we are talking structual limits it is NOT a big deal. It is a minor inspection and a logbook entry....in any case who cares, no matter how overweight you are you will still be okay...so you trash the main gear strut on landing...whatever.

If we are talking performance limits - remember all the fudge factors (60% - no reverse) in the calculations and the fact that a lot of times the limitations are because of the go-around, not the runway itself.

On an airplane the size of an MD-11 losing 10,000 - 20,000 pounds of landing weight doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference. I would have dumped fuel but only until I needed to turn it off to land.

I was shocked at this accident because they had smoke that was not obvious where it was coming from (i.e. smoldering cigarrete left in lav). Smoke is a no brainer...you land the plane...I don't care how heavy you are, where it's coming from, etc.

I am not sorry I am second guessing these pilots - I second guess every accident - I second guess every decision I make - I think it makes me a better pilot - Heaven forbid I get killed in an accident, I hope that every pilot scrutinizes everything I did so they can learn from it.

Later

I agree with everything you mentioned here. I'd like to add something. If you were flying the N Atlantic and you were overhead Goose Bay with unknown smoke and an RVR 300 ft below mins there, would you excersise your emergency authority and attempt a below min ldg at Goose Bay or take the chance and continue to Gander with MVFR WX?