SWAPA wants all FAPA Pilots

[airlinepilot]

Don't know where this "interview" thing is coming from but I have not heard anything about this. Staple with pay protection...yes, interview...no

 

[firstthird]

Our first press release talked about 'hiring' F9 employees on an as needed basis. not sure if that is realistic or possible or even desirable (versus taking all ala Morris) but I suspect that is where the 'interview' notion originates.

 

[RedDogC130]

I hope they get stapled....if they do not want a pay raise and better benefits then screw them interview like the rest of us....Why do you think you are entiled to jumping 3000+ guys and get a 30-40% pay raise? Please answer that....Nobody here has made a valid argument why they should be blended into our senority.....DOH you are dreaming it is apples to oranges....GK does not want this place to be USAIR......if it is anything but a staple it will go that way fast.

 

[Flying the Line]

I hope they get stapled....if they do not want a pay raise and better benefits then screw them interview like the rest of us....Why do you think you are entiled to jumping 3000+ guys and get a 30-40% pay raise? Please answer that....Nobody here has made a valid argument why they should be blended into our senority.....DOH you are dreaming it is apples to oranges....GK does not want this place to be USAIR......if it is anything but a staple it will go that way fast.

It depends, is SWA going to cancel codeshare with Volaris? If they do it might be worth a small percentage keeping their seat.

 

[afhercdriver]

Fair? SWA is acquiring 40 airframes worth of lift, 80% of revenue of a 1.2 Billion dollar a year enterprise, and immediately owns denver (their biggest airport system-wide with this acquisition).

If emotion is removed from the equation, the #1 guy at F9 should be placed on the SWA list based upon his date of hire and the rest of the F9 list should be blended in at a ratio of 10 to 1. This preserves the upgrade of all current swa fo's, and everyone on the new list will experience the same "seniority" as they currently hold.

Oh yeah, this ratio will result in the furlough of 20% of F9's current list. They lose all seniority (no other SWA pilots to buffer the ratio).

If you are a current SWA pilot and have a problem with this, please opine.

I will be furloughed as a result of this transaction, and I still hope that SWA prevails.

I was told by 2 Frontier guys their #1 guy was fired by SWA. Any Frontier guys have any other information? Not that it matters, just curious.

Jim

 

[StaySeated]

Compass Airlines owns 36 jets, if we bought them where do you think we should put them. "40 airframes worth of lift" :laugh: We currently have 55 jets we just use as spares. Sit back and think of how your professional pilot career would change for the Frontier pilot, and how it would change for the Southwest pilot. Go ahead and sell me on how great a deal I am getting by this Frontier deal, then times it by 5935 :angryfire. Are both groups getting the same gain? I still don't see it, and owning Denver? Please.

Compass flies RJ's, what is your point?

Do you really believe that you have 10% of your entire fleet just sitting around, ready to be used as "spares"?

Do you have any idea what your own company stated yesterday regarding international flying and the F9 acquisition.

This is all pretty important stuff.

I recommend that you contact one of your swapa reps, if swa wins the auction it will be very important for all swapa pilots to have accurate facts, and not just some information they read on a message board.

SWAPA, and SWA, have both stated as recently as yesterday during the conference call that FAPA pilots will be integrated according to the letter and spirit of the law. Integrated could actually include a staple, but no one is talking about interviewing for a position.

Hopefully SWA prevails and SWAPA and FAPA can come to a solution that meets the needs of both pilot groups.

Regardless, best of luck to you.

 

[Cometman]

It depends, is SWA going to cancel codeshare with Volaris? If they do it might be worth a small percentage keeping their seat.

That could be a true statement. However, if SWA wants to take over international flying they will be doing it regardless if your union demands a staple or not. SWAP needs to do 2 things: If they are taking Lynx and there is a chance to keep them they need to make sure that SWA pilots fly them. This could be with different pay rates for the smaller aircraft but there needs to be strong wording to limit the Q400 to certain markets. The markets need to be mileage based to prevent them from ever replacing 737 flying with the cheaper Q400 flying. Forget the number of seats an aircraft has, just limit it to say 150 miles or less. That will stop them from ever replacing 737 flying with Q400 or anything else they decide to get. It doesn't have to be a certain number of aircraft if there is a limit on the miles between markets. I am sure there are a few markets that they fly to that would not be feasible for the 737. The second thing they need to do is stand up and show the members that a staple is the only way to go. They already know if that is legal or not. If it is not legal to demand that then tell the members so they can start preparing for it. Why keep them in limbo and allow them to think of the impossible. If it is legal then that is the only way to go.

 

[canyonblue]

Hopefully SWA prevails and SWAPA and FAPA can come to a solution that meets the needs of both pilot groups.

SWA knows that they MUST appease one group and that is SWAPA. We as F/O's just hammered a TA that would have increased our FO pay to your CA pay. If there is anything this FO group is unwilling to bend on it's SCOPE and the fact that our seniority protection IS priority one.

Integrated could actually include a staple, but no one is talking about interviewing for a position.

I would think from the discussions on the line and on other message boards that a "Staple" would be the best case scenario from a SWA pilots point of view. Most pilot opinions have expressed that this is NOT a merger but rather an acquisition. We are BUYING Frontiers assets, not joining two companies.

 

[waveflyer]

Don't limit the Q400- just make sure that SWAPA pilots fly it- that could be a lot of growth. A LOT.

 

[Cometman]

Don't limit the Q400- just make sure that SWAPA pilots fly it- that could be a lot of growth. A LOT.

If you do not limit the Q400 then SWA could start replacing 737 flying with Q400 flying. Since the Q400 will most likely pay less it would be cheaper. The only way you can control the amount of Q400 or any other smaller aircraft is to have strong language limiting their use. I think the only way to limit their use is to limit the mileage they can fly. Once you get that included then you can also limit the number of aircraft and the number of seats. With all 3 under control SWAPA will not have to be concerned with the company replacing 737 flying with Q400's.

 

[HDA]

There seems to be a lot of opinions out there that the SWA guys are selfish for wanting a staple with pay protection and a DEN fence for the F9 guys.

I am curious as to what exactly (with specifics) the F9 guys think is fair. There seems to be a lot of outsiders that want to tell the SWA and the F9 guys what is fair, but I'd really like to hear from the F9 guys. Do you guys have some solid integration numbers that you think is "fair and equitable"? What ratio or formula is fair?

Best of luck to everyone whichever way this turns out.

Im near the rock bottom of Frontiers list and currently furloughed. If I end up on the bottom of SWA list I would be cool with that. Im sure that I wouldnt be in the front of a 737 for a while, but im cool with that too.

 

[CrownandCoke]

weighing in as a Lynx pilot here...

the potential to be on the SWA list is awesome. However, it's not realistic. Why? Because we haven't been hired by Southwest Airlines. There are some guys here (quite a few) who would not fit what Southwest wants in a pilot. Not only that, but some of our pilots are freakin 21 years old!

My personal opinion is you have an interview for the Lynx pilots. Not a long, drawn out interview about drawing holding patterns, but one of just personality. Interview us and get to know us on a personal level. If you like us, hire us. If not, thanks for trying, see you at the unemployment line.

This can go either really good for Lynx or really bad.

 

[Prog 2/2]

Question for the SWA guys. After listening to the confernece call and reading all the press releases, it sounds like they plan to operate and grow Lynx. They are still deciding if it will be via Southwest or another as they put it "experienced commuter"... ie; they sell Lynx off and continue to use them as lift. My question is, is this even possible? It is my understanding (and of course I could be wrong) that with the current SWAPA contract in place all airframes flying for Southwest must be flown by SWA pilots. How could SWA sell off Lynx and then continue to use them as feed? I'm guessing everything can be negotiated, but I wanted to get your input on this as scope protection seemed to be one of the big reasons the recent TA didn't pass. Thanks.

I said it before, this deal is all about Lynx.

Forget the integration red-herrings, and the associated bs, Lynx is the threat to every FO on the SWA property.

Think those upgrades are a long way off now? Just wait till your company has a "regional partner".

 

[waveflyer]

Who says the Q has to pay less than the 737? I know it's very popular to think that a planes economics rests on pilot pay- but that's some fuzzy math. An operation's costs have so many other factors involved that $50 or a $100 extra for pilots isn't the deciding factor. There are so many assumptions- a Q going to Aspen could be a good investment for wn while keeping our rates. How about Jackson hole? Burlington? How many markets don't make sense with the 737- but do w/ a Q? How many more people would be able to fly on southwest? How about Santa Barbara? How about supplemental routes on short haul stuff- adding frequency can stimulate demand and create a bigger market- it's one of the reasons the majors put up with the RJ despite it's costs (in addition to dividing the union)

Feeders can be a huge positive- just not at sub-standard wages and with non-Swapa pilots. I'd fly a Q- in a heartbeat- IF it paid right and was scheduled right. = must be SWAPA

ie: there are a lot of opportunities for an efficient modern quiet turboprop like the Q in wn's system. If the ball is dropped and they operate lynx seperately - it will be devastating to Swapa bring along the Lynx guys (regardless of windfalls) and it sends a lot of messages to management and the industry about the appropriate role for 121 pilots- and it gives the F9 guys the percieved furlough protection they want.

I must emphasize though- Swa is a long way from furloughs- Swapa is 6000 pilots strong- who all fly their butt off- and they will take you in like family - with 6k pilots- each one sheds an hour - and the furloughs are avoided- and that's IF management voices their need for that. So relax about doomsday- This deal can be good for everybody if you think about it the right way

 

[MILPILOT17]

Who says the Q has to pay less than the 737? I know it's very popular to think that a planes economics rests on pilot pay- but that's some fuzzy math. An operation's costs have so many other factors involved that $50 or a $100 extra for pilots isn't the deciding factor. There are so many assumptions- a Q going to Aspen could be a good investment for wn while keeping our rates. How about Jackson hole? Burlington? How many markets don't make sense with the 737- but do w/ a Q? How many more people would be able to fly on southwest? How about Santa Barbara? How about supplemental routes on short haul stuff- adding frequency can stimulate demand and create a bigger market- it's one of the reasons the majors put up with the RJ despite it's costs (in addition to dividing the union)

Feeders can be a huge positive- just not at sub-standard wages and with non-Swapa pilots. I'd fly a Q- in a heartbeat- IF it paid right and was scheduled right. = must be SWAPA

ie: there are a lot of opportunities for an efficient modern quiet turboprop like the Q in wn's system. If the ball is dropped and they operate lynx seperately - it will be devastating to Swapa bring along the Lynx guys (regardless of windfalls) and it sends a lot of messages to management and the industry about the appropriate role for 121 pilots- and it gives the F9 guys the percieved furlough protection they want.

I must emphasize though- Swa is a long way from furloughs- Swapa is 6000 pilots strong- who all fly their butt off- and they will take you in like family - with 6k pilots- each one sheds an hour - and the furloughs are avoided- and that's IF management voices their need for that. So relax about doomsday- This deal can be good for everybody if you think about it the right way

Nice post!

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

You do not know what you are talking about

Yes, that's correct, but FAPA is in a better position than TWA ALPA was, because they have two suitors rather than one. If they refuse SWA's demands to waive their scope, they have RAH in their back pocket that has vowed to operate them separately.

The AA of purchase TWA was a put together quickly to derail a merger with America West backed by Boeing money for aircraft. The former TWA CEO had renegotiated the leases on the TWA Boeings, saving about $30 million. That CEO took that $30 million to Europe two weeks later and put a deposit on Airbus 318/319s. Boeing wanted that CEO ( Bill Compton) gone in the AWA deal. It was two years in the making, the AA/TWA took about 1 month to gain steam. Compton kept his job, for awhile.

Don't make excuses for ALPA throwing TWA Councils 1 and 3 under the bus.

TWA was asked to declare bankruptcy in order to make the deal happen. TWA was not in Ch. 11 before the AA deal. It is much the same as AMR acquired Air Virginia and made in AE for $.10 on the dollar.

It's not personal, just business.

Mergers are always tricky. SWAPA would be smart to make sure all the pilots are added to the seniority list for the same pay rates. It illiminates the whip-saw potential.

A union's job is to protect it's members and lobby for it's members best interest, regardless of the position of the airline may be in. I think SWAPA already understands that.

 

[StaySeated]

Stop wasting your energy on lynx. The entire operation will be divested well before the last airbus is transitioned. SWA already has a buyer for the certificate. How else do you think they will keep Bedford from upping his ante?

Bedford gets $50MM instead of $40MM. (DIP paid in full, plus interest, plus "slush")

Bedford gets $3.5MM just for writing the first proposal.

Bedford gets approximately $18MM for the RAH unsecured claim.

Bedford gets 10 Q's for a steal.

If you think that SWA, Bedford and Menke are not chatting over dinner than you need to wake up.

This won't be much of an auction.

 

[Cardinal]

Edit: Nevermind, I'm not gonna lower myself to this.

 

[Cardinal]

.....

 

[texman]

Who says the Q has to pay less than the 737? I know it's very popular to think that a planes economics rests on pilot pay- but that's some fuzzy math. An operation's costs have so many other factors involved that $50 or a $100 extra for pilots isn't the deciding factor. There are so many assumptions- a Q going to Aspen could be a good investment for wn while keeping our rates. How about Jackson hole? Burlington? How many markets don't make sense with the 737- but do w/ a Q? How many more people would be able to fly on southwest? How about Santa Barbara? How about supplemental routes on short haul stuff- adding frequency can stimulate demand and create a bigger market- it's one of the reasons the majors put up with the RJ despite it's costs (in addition to dividing the union)

Feeders can be a huge positive- just not at sub-standard wages and with non-Swapa pilots. I'd fly a Q- in a heartbeat- IF it paid right and was scheduled right. = must be SWAPA

ie: there are a lot of opportunities for an efficient modern quiet turboprop like the Q in wn's system. If the ball is dropped and they operate lynx seperately - it will be devastating to Swapa bring along the Lynx guys (regardless of windfalls) and it sends a lot of messages to management and the industry about the appropriate role for 121 pilots- and it gives the F9 guys the percieved furlough protection they want.

I must emphasize though- Swa is a long way from furloughs- Swapa is 6000 pilots strong- who all fly their butt off- and they will take you in like family - with 6k pilots- each one sheds an hour - and the furloughs are avoided- and that's IF management voices their need for that. So relax about doomsday- This deal can be good for everybody if you think about it the right way

I agree, I don't have a jet ego. The q needs to be flown by swa pilots. We need to stop the regional take over that has happen the past 15 years. plus I would luv to fly back to all the fun airports. Get me some ski bunny luv, Or just chill at the cigar bar in ASE.