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SWA near hit at LAX

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canyonblue

Everyone loves Southwest
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
2,314
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The news here in LA said that the Asiana -400 came within 187 feet of the Southwest jet, and when they began their go around, they were within 12 seconds of hitting each other.

Thank the Lord it was a clear daylight situation and the Asiana crew realized what was going on after such a long flight.

Everyone remember to check final!! Just because you've been "cleared" for takeoff doesn't mean its "clear for takeoff."

Fly safely.
 
We do clear final. An aircraft on a 5 mile final at LAX always looks like it is lined up on your runway. If you listen to the tape he tells another aicraft "caution heavy 747 on short final for 24R."
 
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hey canyon,

Am I going to make that flight?
 
First Class has 4 seats open
Coach Class has 7 seats open

Good luck my Union Brother!
 
Canyon,

I wasn't suggesting that you (or more specifically, the crew of either flight involved) did something wrong, just trying to give industry-wide cockpit vigilance a bump. Believe me, I know how difficult it can often be to determine which runway an aircraft on final is for while you're holding short at LAX.
 
does anyone know what type of discipline could, or was, brought to the controller? if any... i have to think that if it were a pilot error they'd be out for their head, or worse.
 
NTSB Faults FAA Runway Safety Effort
November 10, 2004 A near-collision between a Boeing 747 and another plane in August has prompted US safety investigators to classify as unacceptable aviation regulators' efforts to improve runway safety.

The five-member National Transportation Safety Board was angry the incident in Los Angeles was not immediately reported and not initially classified by the Federal Aviation Administration as an air traffic control error.

At a hearing on safety priorities, some board members also questioned the accuracy of recent agency claims of considerable progress in making runways safer with technological and educational advances and a self-monitoring system for reporting controller mistakes.

Members expressed impatience with FAA efforts to reduce runway near-misses. They voted to lower the board's rating of agency progress on the problem to unacceptable from acceptable with slow progress. The board also disclosed two other near-misses in Cincinnati and Baltimore recently but it was unclear if controllers were at fault.

An accurate accounting of errors is crucial for gauging the effectiveness of aviation safety programs, including those that measure runway near-misses.

"This highly visible incident was not reported," said Debbie Hersman, a safety board member, referring to the August near-collision. "It may suggest a deeper reporting problem."

To underscore its displeasure with the FAA, the safety board released air traffic tapes on the August 19 incident at Los Angeles Airport, which investigators said would have been disastrous had the weather not been perfect.

With Asiana Airlines Flight 204, a Boeing 747, bearing down on the airport, the control tower cleared Southwest Airlines Flight 440 for takeoff on the same runway.

Seconds later the big jet pulled out of its landing approach and screamed over the top of the Southwest Boeing 737 that was holding on the runway.

"That was close," said an unidentified voice on the air traffic recording as the Asiana jetliner roared off just 200 feet above the ground.

Safety board investigator Sandy Rowlett said an automatic FAA anti-collision warning system for controllers activated as designed but was too late to help. She also said the board heard about the incident from Southwest, not the FAA.

Laura Brown, an FAA spokeswoman, defended agency progress over the years and said major runway incidents involving commercial carriers do not go unaddressed. The FAA reported a handful in fiscal 2003 and 2004. "The board is looking for a silver bullet," Brown said, explaining the response has required a coordinated mix of technology and human performance to be effective.
 
Does anyone have a link to the animation & audio of the near accident... I think it was in STL - Not sure, but a NWA 757 got lost and was hanging over an active runway in low vis, the tower controller kept clearing a UsAir plane for takeoff but the crew said "we're not moving until you know where that NWA plane is..."

I think the crew got some kind of ALPA award for refusing the clearance.
 
mmmdonut said:
I think the crew got some kind of ALPA award for refusing the clearance.
It was United and USAir and I believe in Providence. They always show the recreation in indoc class.
 
mmmdonut said:
Does anyone have a link to the animation & audio of the near accident... a NWA 757 got lost and was hanging over an active runway in low vis, the tower controller kept clearing a UsAir plane for takeoff but the crew said "we're not moving until you know where that NWA plane is..."

Here's the video of the PVD incursion: (6.3MB)
http://www.bartnet.net/~jmt/pvd_incursion.rm
 
?

was this pvd incursion a while back? b/c the current pvd chart shows 5/23 not 5R&L/23R&L. also the current charts does not show kilo taxiway. they must have changed things around quite a bit since this happened.
 
Interesting and scary as he11. Thank goodness we get the opportunity to look at this as a learning experience without having to pay the tuition of over 300 lives lost. Unfortunately, special interests will use this as a selling point for some stupid taxiway flashing light peice of pork that's not going to do anything to prevent runway incursions. If the industry and government spent those millions on human factors training and mechanisms, they'd get a lot more bang for the buck. Several interesting things come to mind in watching that video.
  • Just as the WN jet was entering the runway, the local controller advises another aircaft of land 74 traffic on 24R. Just about any of us would have relaxed our vigilance hearing this. What was the visibility?
  • The Asiana crew should have heard the takeoff clearance and taken immediate action, but english is their second language.
  • It sure seems like the Asiana crew waits a long time to go around. A 747-400 arriving from Seoul would be light enough to allow a pretty immediate rate of climb. Not critisizing, just an observation.
Here's a thought. Lots of us fly into airports where english is not used by the controllers or the national airlines. One of us on final would not hear a foreign controller making a similiar error. When in doubt, shove 'em up.

The controller's voice is fascinating after he realizes what's happening. It's the sound of someone who knows his career is over. Then again, the young lady who killed all those USAir and Skywest people on the same runway was promoted.
 
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