SWA delaying new planes, adding used Westjet birds --article

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba...you are wrong on the money part. Now that some OAT Captains have been at SWA for a few months, the comparison reports are starting to come in; and they aren't what you imply. The money is not the same. These guys are making less as SWA F/O's than they were as ATN CA's.

We need to talk apples vs. apples when discussing these pay rates. APC has taken the weird SWA TFP's and converted them to industry standard BLOCK pay rates. Go over there and take a look at ATN CA 12yr. rate vs. SWA FO 12 yr. rate. The difference is -$17/block hour.

Let's not throw in intangibles like premium pay, cartels, the far right end of the bell curve, or anything of that sort. Just stick with straight line numbers.

Straight line numbers that you advocate is NOT an "apples to apples" comparison of what actually happens on each company's payday. In fact, I'm sure you know that there's no actual way on earth to make such a comparison between two dissimilar companies. Regardless, you can't make your "apples to apples" comparison simply the way you did it either. Since there's so much difference between all the other things that make up one's pay besides the rate. Especially since Southwest doesn't get paid by the hour. You can't even simply apply a "fix" to out TFP rate to get an hourly rate, like APC tries to. Since a TFP is based on mileage, and then adjusted for time and other factors, legs blocking the exact same time can pay somewhat different if you're going east or west. Plus the differences in scheduling and rigs also make direct pay comparisons invalid.

A better way to compare pay would be to look at the guaranteed minimums per month times payrate. Also look at practical, or typical, average lines times payrate, and then possibly a nuanced look at how easy it is to get overtime and/or premium overtime.

Madjack says you guys have a 75 hr/month limit. I don't know whether that's true or not, but I can tell you that the average line here pays 95-100 TFP for an average 14 days of work/month. That's before any adjustments, trades, pickups, giveaways, etc. That's basically a guy who works his line, and does nothing else. If you're a senior FO, you can get much better deals than that. If you're on reserve, the minimum guarantee is 90, and occasionally 96. So realistically, the average Southwest guy can multiply his TFP rate times 100 to get his minimum average monthly pay.

At any rate, as I said, a direct APC comparison of "computed hourly rates" isn't a fair comparison of actual pay. DV, how about you try comparing the monthly gross pay of: 1) each company's high earners; 2) each company's slack-ass, lazy, don't-like-to-work pukes; and finally 3) each company's average line pogue. I think you'd find a much more valid comparison.

Bubba

 

[Tripower455]

Bubba...you are wrong on the money part. Now that some OAT Captains have been at SWA for a few months, the comparison reports are starting to come in; and they aren't what you imply. The money is not the same. These guys are making less as SWA F/O's than they were as ATN CA's.

Are they working the same number of days per month?

I'm flying with a FAT Capt (senior MCO FO) next trip (great guy, btw), and will grill him about this again. Last time I flew with him, I asked him about the pay disparity, and he said he was making a little less over here, but he is also working less days and doesn't play the OT or premium game at all. He flies his line and maybe ELITTs up a little. At his level of seniority in MCO, he'd make a killing in premium if he wanted to, making even more for less days worked. He is happy as a pig in mud, btw. All of the other FAT Capts I've discussed this with said they are making more over here than they ever did over there.

We need to talk apples vs. apples when discussing these pay rates. APC has taken the weird SWA TFP's and converted them to industry standard BLOCK pay rates. Go over there and take a look at ATN CA 12yr. rate vs. SWA FO 12 yr. rate. The difference is -$17/block hour.

We definitely need to compare apples with apples. How much does each make at the end of a typical work day/month. That's the barometer we should be using. If I make $1000 per hour, and work one hour in the month, am I earning more than I do working 85 hours at $216 per?

The APC chart only show min guarantee. The only time I've ever seen min guarantee on the bid lines is in Jan or Feb, and it's not been close to every year. IIRC, it's happened less than half a dozen times.

Let's not throw in intangibles like premium pay, cartels, the far right end of the bell curve, or anything of that sort. Just stick with straight line numbers.

Agree, but you do have to account for the difference in productivity per day and the ability to make a lot more with little effort.

A senior FO at SW (which most of the FAT guys over currently here are) can easily exceed what he was making over there as a Capt.

I have flown with a few hard charging FOs over the years that made damn near what I make as a 17 year Capt. A few made more than I typically do flying my line plus a little.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba...you are wrong on the money part. Now that some OAT Captains have been at SWA for a few months, the comparison reports are starting to come in; and they aren't what you imply. The money is not the same. These guys are making less as SWA F/O's than they were as ATN CA's.

We need to talk apples vs. apples when discussing these pay rates. APC has taken the weird SWA TFP's and converted them to industry standard BLOCK pay rates. Go over there and take a look at ATN CA 12yr. rate vs. SWA FO 12 yr. rate. The difference is -$17/block hour.

Let's not throw in intangibles like premium pay, cartels, the far right end of the bell curve, or anything of that sort. Just stick with straight line numbers.

As far as your FAT former captains' current pay, your mileage (and theirs) may vary. It all depends on your seniority, just as it does for every aspect of every other airline pilot. Of the two FAT captains (now Southwest FOs) that I've flown with, one said he makes about the same, and the other said he makes more now as a Southwest senior FO. At the time, he was the number one FO in Las Vegas, so he came over from being a pretty senior AirTran guy (in fact, he's above me on the combined seniority list). He got his first choice in lines, he got to fly whatever days he wanted and whatever days off he wanted; basically he got his first choice of everything (including overtime). He said he made about 5% more money now than he did at the Tran (tweaked his line, but didn't fly more than 15 days per month), and was looking forward to a 50% payraise in 18 or 20 months when he upgraded.

Will this deal be this good for all FAT guys as they transition? No, of course not. As always, the more senior you are, the better off you do. However, the same can be true for how this worked out for Southwest guys. Like I said, it's MY OPINION that the deal should have included pay protection, but when you look at reality rather than just APC computed hourly rates, there's little if any difference.

Bubba

 

[shagadelic]

I just flew with an FO who has 198 TFP on his board for May. Granted he lives in base and only had 9 full days off...but he did fly a bunch of turns so in effect he was home quite a bit. He's in the top 30 FO's in base. His check will be $26,100 for May. I'm thinking that's not bad as an FO. I'm curious how many Captains at AT could pull down that kind of coin if they wanted to?

 

[SWA Bubba]

I just flew with an FO who has 198 TFP on his board for May. Granted he lives in base and only had 9 full days off...but he did fly a bunch of turns so in effect he was home quite a bit. He's in the top 30 FO's in base. His check will be $26,100 for May. I'm thinking that's not bad as an FO. I'm curious how many Captains at AT could pull down that kind of coin if they wanted to?

The all-time Southwest record for one month is a MDW captain who got 345 TFP last August. He did it by having two weeks' vacation that month, then working premium during those paid vacation days. Plus he did a lot of stuff with deadheads and generous rigs that didn't count against his 100 in a month. And I suspect he had a lot of "cartel" help. 345 TFP x $190/trip is $65,500 gross for the month. That's crazy sh1t! Obviously, not everyone can do this (and only once a year, when the conditions are perfect), and I think he "worked" over 25 days in the month. Who the hell wants to be a slave to the company (and computer)? Or to work that hard?

Bubba

 

[General Lee]

Actually, General, the "loss of captain seats" isn't as dire as you make it. The overall seniority list is what determines who is a captain and who isn't, after Jan '15. That means those AirTran captains who are holding out at AirTran until the last possible moment will come over shortly before that date, and if they're senior enough to be one, the will "re-upgrade" almost immediately. In fact, it will be nothing BUT former AirTran guys upgrading for quite a while after that date. There are some very senior FAT captains who already came over, and are quite happy being super-senior FOs for now, with Southwest captain seats waiting for them just 18 months from now. And, like I mentioned, the ones holding out (like Ty Webb and others) are still captains now (AirTran ones, at AirTran CBA rates), and will only be over here for a few months before they can re-upgrade (assuming they're senior enough to do so).

In MY OPINION, what should have been done, was make the overall seniority list with whatever DOH adjustment was deemed "fair" (like the average 2.5 years on the accepted list), and when an AirTran guy transitioned, he would be a captain if his seniority could hold it, and an FO otherwise. (Rather than wait several months to 1.5 years first, depending on when he came over.) And I'd also pay-protect anyone who has a new payrate lower than his old one. That doesn't really affect many guys (if any), and being an FO for some months before regaining one's captain seat isn't THAT far from what I described as fair above.

If you're REALLY arguing that they should have kept their captain seats forever, just because (and it seems that IS what you're arguing), then I disagree that it's fair. Nobody on this board has ever given me an answer to why they think that six years' AirTran service is more deserving of a Southwest captain seat, than ten years' of Southwest service is. Do you have one a justification for that, General? In MY OPINION, that wouldn't have been fair to orig Southwest senior FOs who couldn't upgrade.

If a FAT junior captain is now a senior Southwest FO, making the same money, and has better seniority for bidding, base, vacations, etc., then what's the harm? I mean, the guys who bitch say it's not about the money, but downgraded junior FAT captains actually have BETTER QOL as senior Southwest FOs, assuming they make the same money. And eventually, they can trade in that QOL for a 50% payraise when they have the opportunity to upgrade to Southwest captain. Just like anybody else. Some guys stay senior FOs for QOL, and some chase the captain seat.

And to actually answer the question you posed in your post, General, YES. In the first package (the one vetoed by AirTran's MEC), every AirTran captain was given a "captain retention slot" by name. He would be a Southwest captain no matter what base he went to. Forever. (junior base if he was junior, and more senior bases as he could hold it). The only way for him to lose his captain seat was in the even of an overall reduction of captains companywide (or for him to leave the company, or to voluntarily downgrade). Their junior former AirTran captains would probably be on Southwest Captain reserve for years, due to them being junior to many of our FOs, who, when they upgraded, would start off as captains senior to them. They bitched about that, but the only way to change that (since it took less time to upgrade at AirTran than Southwest) would be to give them captain seats, and THEN give them a large INCREASE in seniority over what they had at AirTran. Does that sound fair to you?

Anyway, I'm not saying that these guys don't have anything to bitch about (mainly the change in their careers from the 717s going away, and they way they're being transitioned), but the deal they got (and the one they turned down) is not as bad as you're making it. I don't know if you honestly don't know this, or you're just doing this for SWA-bashing sport. But, there's some facts for you.

Bubba

Thanks Bubba for that response. I do understand your opinion, and I accept it. My opinion differs, of course. Not allowing any AT Capt into a plane that they already operate seems "interesting" to me. Yes, they could have bumped down to the 717s to keep their left seat, but that almost appears like someone didn't want certain pilots in certain seats. It doesn't really make sense. The top 10 guys at AT probably had the seniority to do it, and yet they have to do right seat training again. In arbitration, the likely result would have probably been a lot different. DL management trusted the FNWA Capts to be highly skilled and professional, and never dictated rules otherwise. FNWA pilots flew with a mix of pilots, including FDAL FOs, and everyone learned pretty quick how to fly the way the airline wanted them to. They let arbitrators decide the SLI and fence stuff, and in the end nobody was mad at management about SLI issues.

I see your point, and I just think the 18 month delay was unnecessary. At this stage of the game, a couple sims on procedures and maybe a line check maybe could have sufficed. Regardless, I hope the transitions go well for all of your combined group.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I just flew with an FO who has 198 TFP on his board for May. Granted he lives in base and only had 9 full days off...but he did fly a bunch of turns so in effect he was home quite a bit. He's in the top 30 FO's in base. His check will be $26,100 for May. I'm thinking that's not bad as an FO. I'm curious how many Captains at AT could pull down that kind of coin if they wanted to?

Wow, that is great. Reminds me of the crews stuck in Europe due to that Icelandic volcano blowing up. Many got huge bucks for overtime, and got an extra week in Europe, with per diem.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[shagadelic]

The all-time Southwest record for one month is a MDW captain who got 345 TFP last August. He did it by having two weeks' vacation that month, then working premium during those paid vacation days. Plus he did a lot of stuff with deadheads and generous rigs that didn't count against his 100 in a month. And I suspect he had a lot of "cartel" help. 345 TFP x $190/trip is $65,500 gross for the month. That's crazy sh1t! Obviously, not everyone can do this (and only once a year, when the conditions are perfect), and I think he "worked" over 25 days in the month. Who the hell wants to be a slave to the company (and computer)? Or to work that hard?

Bubba

My record is 192 this past December....with Christmas week off. I had one week of vacation the week before Christmas and scored 5 premium trips over it.

Now that Denver is a base and I'm driving to work I find 140 is not hard and I still have more time off than when I commuted.

Oh, and that guy with 345 does not have a "cartel". His board is open. He does it the old fashioned way. I think this "cartel" thing is way overblown.

 

[Ty Webb]

Madjack says you guys have a 75 hr/month limit.

Wacky Jack is about as reliable as Jay Carney. :laugh:

Our minimum guarantee is 75/76. That's the least you can possibly make flying your awarded line, not the most.

 

[Ty Webb]

I just flew with an FO who has 198 TFP on his board for May. Granted he lives in base and only had 9 full days off...but he did fly a bunch of turns so in effect he was home quite a bit. He's in the top 30 FO's in base. His check will be $26,100 for May. I'm thinking that's not bad as an FO. I'm curious how many Captains at AT could pull down that kind of coin if they wanted to?

Probably not, but I had 11 more days off than that guy, I don't have to live in base, and my trips were commutable 3 day trips with nice long layovers.

I wouldn't trade with him . . . . and he probably wouldn't want to trade with me either.

What's your point?

PS., I did make more than that in May, but it wasn't all at the Tranny.