SWA 1000 PIC Turbine Requirement

[b757driver]

I see I'm not the only poor sod out there with no place to go. There are some things you have control over and others where you don't stand a chance.

For the record, I'm ATP rated with B737 Type PLUS two other ICAO licenses - all with the 737 type as well. I am rated on the 737-200 and flew the -737-800 (but only 500 SIC). Total time 7200+, lots of international experience, mainly on the 737 (2828), even LCC experience, exactly the same type of operation as SW, even was a B737 Pilot Instructor for a while in the mid 90s, very personable, very diverse, very dedicated also lots of customer service. In other words everything SWA would look for. What's the problem? You guessed it, only 1490 PIC - none of it turbine. Plenty of Turbine SIC and Jet. Also, ex-military, non-flying.

Of course, the 5 LAYOFFS IN A 12 YEAR PERIOD did nothing for my career wrt seniority, upgrade etc. At least it's nice to know that others have been left out in the wilderness and their only crime was bad choices vis a vis unstabe companies and not having a chance to get that apparently coveted PIC Turbine time.

I know we have to live and abide by the hiring rules, perceptions etc., but I always thought it rather strange that NONE of my previous employers ever gave a hoot about PIC time just total time and what you flew. Yes, every airline hires future captains but in most, you won't make it to the LHS for a few years if at all, as was the US Air case. Does this mean that those were incapable of ever upgrading or not showing leadership qualities? I hardly think so. They were just plain unlucky - like me. Besides, if SWA are as great as they think they are in terms of the best/most competitive, their training department would ensure they turn out the best Captains from their seasoned FOs - a direct measure of their investment. As any HR manager (or CP come to think of it) knows, you don't measure leadership or attitude in terms of how many PIC hours one has. I've been around long enough to know that there are plenty of Captains out there that you wonder how they managed to ever upgrade let alone get through all those PCs twice a year. Same goes for attitude. I'm sure the SWA training program is exemplary and they will train to their SOPs and select upgrade candidates in due course who turn out to be great Captains. So, this whole PIC Turbine thing is a red herring. So what if you have/had 1000 or 1500 or 10,000 PIC Turbine 20 years ago in (you fill in the blank)? None of this ensures you will make the grade and the emphasis is in the wrong place.

Bottom line, PIC Turbine does not make you God. It is only perceived by some that it is. In this tough market, the recruiters have to have something else that will screen out a large percentage in order to make their jobs easier. That's a sad fact.

On a side note, I was once hired (by a 737 operator for a training position) when I gave an unconventional answer to the question "why should we hire you?" My answer centered on the benefits of a reliable, dedicated employee and an up-beat, positive attitude. I never once mentioned qualifications nor experience. I got the job but -----got the pink slip 3 months later on completion of all required training!!!

More recently, my airline went bust as I was completing my PIC upgrade in the 757, so I did not even get to complete my IOE, let alone 1000 hours. My 2200 SIC on the 757 and 2828 SIC on two models of the 737 no longer count for much. I'm a dime a dozen...thanks for listening.

Now if anyone knows of a 737 or 757 job which does not require PIC time for 5-8 years in the RHS and is not overseas, I would be real interested.......!!??

 

[buttnutt jr]

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[737tanker]

b757driver
You may not think that it is fair for SWA to require 1000 PIC turbine to be hired & it may not be. Just like it may not be fair that the military requires perfect 20/20 vision to go to pilot training. In both cases those are the requirements so we have to learn to live with them. In SWA's recent history (well as recent as 1994) they had pilots upgrading with only 2 years with SWA so that is 1 reason that they want the PIC time. It may change but don't count on it. Just remember at 1 time you needed the type just to be interviewed so anything is possible.

 

[Neubyfly]

Wish I were qualified to fly at SW!!

 

[enigma]

b757driver, man you're timing was obviously off. So was mine. So was the timing of most people who have EVER aspired to a major airline cockpit.

Cuss fate if you want, but don't waste your own emotional energy tilting at windmills. SWA has a requirement. Period. It may not be exactly fair, but it is what it is.

You wrote, "Of course, the 5 LAYOFFS IN A 12 YEAR PERIOD did nothing for my career wrt seniority, upgrade etc. ........................
I know we have to live and abide by the hiring rules, perceptions etc., but I always thought it rather strange that NONE of my previous employers ever gave a hoot about PIC time just total time and what you flew. "

OK, I just deleted about five minutes of writing because I couldn't find a way to say this in a politically correct manner: You've seen poor management first hand (five furloughs in twelve years), yet you dare to rail against good management. I doubt that you would be happy with SWA. So don't waste your energy trying to get on there.

enigma

 

[b757driver]

Again, thanks for the advice. Yes, I've had more adversities in my career than most people have had hot dinners but I have moved on and am surviving. I know about SWA and all their requirements - have done for 10+ years. I knew then that I would never make it with them and I know that unless they relax some that rule I will not make it now. It is not news to me nor am I crying over it. I am simply making a statement - call a spade a spade. It is a form of discrimination, so don't call it equal opportunity employment when it counts out almost as many otherwise qualified pilots as it takes.

I wonder how on earth I managed to fly the type for almost 3000 hours in exactly the same type of operation and would have made Captain at that previous employer had it not been for my bad decision in believing that a new start-up in my home state was a better deal. Also, I was more than 3/4 the through Capt IOE when they shut the doors.

But none of this is considered worthy to interview with SWA because I have made bad personal decisions, believing in companies and always coming up with the goods. They are the ones that have failed - not me!

Like I said before, this rule is mainly for HR so that they have another tool to use in screening. And that is fine, I accept it. But don't call it equal opportunity when it clearly is not. If it were, then everyone would be doing it.

Finally, I did have a "talk" with a SWA Captain once on a layover. This person also sat on the interview board once a month. After hearing my story and the sacrifices I had made etc., she said that as part of the SWA evaluation they score your personality, demeanor, general attitude and how you hadle certain situations. She told me unequivocally that if I interviewed with SWA then and she was on the board she would give me a 12 out of 10 score. That was 8 years ago!

The only thing that has ever prevented me from interviewing with them is the 1000 PIC Turbine. Since they relaxed the 737 type rating (at one time), why not do the same for the PIC Turbine?

 

[SWAdude]

It is a form of discrimination, so don't call it equal opportunity employment when it counts out almost as many otherwise qualified pilots as it takes.


The problem I have with this viewpoint is that then all airlines established minimums af qualifications are discriminitive.

SWAdude

 

[enigma]

Since they relaxed the 737 type rating (at one time), why not do the same for the PIC Turbine?

b757driver, I really do sympathize, but my point is that the 1000PIC IS their rule. I don't know why they don't relax it, maybe they should, but they haven't.

I'm really not trying to be a jerk about this, But it is a well known number and it has been a long time requirement. You have obviously been in the business as long as I have and you have to have know about the requirement. You choose to stay where you were instead of getting the PIC. I just can't see that your choice makes SWA unfair. Why didn't you do the same as many of us did and take a job that would get you over the top of 1000 if you really wanted to work for SWA? For myself, I walked away from a really good corporate pilot services job because the operator bought an aircraft in which I had no type rating. (They used me as PIC, but wouldn't type me at their expense. Too many other typed pilots were available.) I took a job with a rat-hole commuter operation because it offered immediate PIC. I was making more flying corporate pilot services ten days a month than I did for the entire month as a commuter pilot. It was tough, but I knew that I had to have the time in order to get on with SWA. To me, it's pretty simple. They have the jobs, they make the rules; we want the jobs, we follow their rules. And as I alluded to earlier, it is hard to argue with success and SWA has certainly been successful.

regards,
enigma

 

[StopNTSing]

Bottom line, PIC Turbine does not make you God. It is only perceived by some that it is. In this tough market, the recruiters have to have something else that will screen out a large percentage in order to make their jobs easier. That's a sad fact.

No b757driver, PIC turbine time doesn't make you God, but it does make you more of a known commodity. I've encountered several pilots over the years who were fine F/Os, but could just never seem to hack the captain upgrade. While you have a lot of flight experience, the bottom line is that unfortunately you've spent most of your career pulling gear for someone else. I'm sure after all this time, his/her job is looking pretty easy from across the pedestal, but until you've walked the walk for a few years and/or thousand hours or so....well, who really knows if you are indeed captain material. SWA has had this requirement for a LONG time and perhaps not coincidently there have been only a handful of captain upgrade busts over the years. We also have an up-or-out policy, hence there's no room here for "career F/Os" like some other carriers. The policy seems to be serving SWA well...I would not expect them to change it until supply demands otherwise.

Best of luck to you.

 

[b757driver]

SWAdude

Incorrect. Not all airlines have this requirement. Indeed, the majority do not and they have absolutely no problem hiring what they deem to be the best candidates nor having successful upgrades. And like I said, I exceed ALL the other minimum requirements by quite a margin for SWA as well as for other carriers. SWA, JB and AirTran are unique in this respect and that is precisely why I do not apply to these places.
JB brought theirs in because their director of HR was the former SWA HR recruiter. Otherwise they would not have this rule there either.

enigma

I appreciate you had a hard time initially also. However, everyone's circumstances are different. I left my previous 737 employer because I had an opportunity in getting in on the ground floor and an early command. Also, I was tired of commuting between LHR and LAS for 2.5 years, not seeing family for long periods etc. I'm sure the majority of pilots in my position would have done the same. I was offered a position on the 757 (without even SIC time!), got rated at company expense and almost made the upgrade as they were going belly up. I did not voluntarily leave N7 nor was my wish to get the PIC and then bail. I was happy where I was. My wish was to stay there until retirement. If N7 had made it, I would have had more than 1000 PIC by now. I accept the crapshoot this whole career is and it is hard enough to merely survive layoffs. I think you are slightly missing the point here. I am not saying that my choices make SWA unfair. My choices have nothing to do with SWA rules. I'm saying that this rule precludes a lot of otherwise very good candidates who have no chance of showing their talents because it is perceived that if you have 1000 Turbine PIC, you are, without doubt, going to make an excellent Captain without any busts.

StopNTSing

The same could be said for some Captains. I have flown with a handful over the years that gave me serious concerns and I'm not just talking about flying skills. Indeed, I can recall a PC where a Captain just "took over the whole show", no CRM, crew co-ordination and trying to do everything himself, even the NFP functions. I tried to help him when he was PF and tried to be diplomatic about it. Eventually, the check airman had to call a halt and have a private word with this individual. And he was a seasoned Captain. So, you see even if you are a Captain and have been for a while, it does not guarantee anything!

I agree, I'm not interested in career F/O positions - who does? My only crime is that I do not have the Midas touch in choosing companies and I am paying a very heavy price. Each time you get laid off/furloughed, you have to start over. If that is foreign to some of you, let me assure you it does not "build character". Now if I could only get that crystal ball correct.....

Thanks for all the advice gents, I greatly respect SWA and have had the privilege of sharing their jump seats many times as well as reciprocating when I still had a job. I just happen to disagree with the basic premise that PIC Turbine is the definitive barometer of what makes a good captain. There's far more to it than that.

 

[SWAdude]

b757driver,

Incorrect. Not all airlines have this requirement.

Before I could apply to SWA I was required to have a type. Was that discriminatory? Many foreign operators require types in their type of aircraft. When I got on with my regional they required 1500 total time when another one I had applied to required 1000 hours. When I was applying to the majors I was required to have a current FE written passed. How about multi time? They have all required differing amounts of time.

I could on and on about different requirements. I feel discrimination is too easy of an accusation for why one doesn't get a job.

Thanks for all the advice gents, I greatly respect SWA and have had the privilege of sharing their jump seats many times as well as reciprocating when I still had a job. I just happen to disagree with the basic premise that PIC Turbine is the definitive barometer of what makes a good captain. There's far more to it than that.

That is your opinion and I see your point. But it does not make it discrimination.

SWAdude

 

[Steve 737]

Like most airlines, SWA interviews potential candidates to be SWA Captains, not First Officers. The 1000 PIC turbine requirement may be a good indicator of ones potential to upgrade to 737 Captain, but should it ....in of itself.... eliminate a large number of highly qualified pilots who do not meet this one particular requirement. I am referring to the many pilots at USAir, TWA, and other airlines that (through no fault of thier own) were stuck at the bottom of a seniority list for a decade or more. Most of these people have in excess of 10,000 hours total time and many have a 737 type rating and 5,000 hours or more of 737 time. Yet, due to this one requirement, we are not even qualified to interview. Why not drop this requirement and let us interview ? I think the SWA hiring department is doing itself a disservice by not even considering these highly qualified people !

 

[46Driver]

If you are going to drop that PIC requirement, might as well drop that rule against helo time. 2500+ hours of aircraft commander time I can't put anywhere on a resume. Yep, life's not fair to a lot of us.....

 

[enigma]

I am referring to the many pilots at USAir, TWA, and other airlines that (through no fault of thier own) were stuck at the bottom of a seniority list for a decade or more. Most of these people have in excess of 10,000 hours total time and many have a 737 type rating and 5,000 hours or more of 737 time. Yet, due to this one requirement, we are not even qualified to interview. Why not drop this requirement and let us interview ? I think the SWA hiring department is doing itself a disservice by not even considering these highly qualified people !

I just realized that you guys are missing the most important item to SWA, who by the way most certainly has the right to pick employees that it thinks will do a good job, and that point would be that SWA historically looked for people who WANT to be at SWA.

Steve, you write that many pilots were stuck at AAA, TWA, etc for decades. I submit to you that those pilots weren't stuck anywhere. They had the right to quit those carriers and apply for SWA anytime during those decades.

I really feel for anyone out of work at this time. I am employed because of the grace of God, or pure luck if you will, so I certainly don't feel like I'm smarter than anyone else............ But I can honestly say that SWA was always my first choice. Period. Every move I have made since I passed my CFI has been aimed at gaining employement at SWA. I want to work for SWA. If I was SWA, I would look more favorably on someone like myself, than I would someone who only came calling after their legacy major went tits-up.

They want people who want to be there, not people who settle to be there, or people who only want to be there because their first choice went out of business.

cheers,
enigma

 

[Dignan]

I usually stay out of these threads, but here goes. On these boards I've seen a varied of requirements (4 yr degree, LOR's, turbine PIC, 20/20 vision, et al) labeled "discrimination." But isn't all hiring really discrimination in a sense?

By this I don't mean "discrimination" in the modern litigious PC sense, but simply as a selection process. If there were truly no discriminating in the process at all, the airline would just hire whoever walked through the door first with the minimum requirements (which, if requiring certain hours is discrimination, would be just a license and medical, I guess). I'm not trying to take sides or pick an argument, just wondering if anyone else sees it this way.

Take it easy & stay warm,
D

 

[Caveman]

I find myself having to reconsider a long held opinion I've had about SWA. I have been fairly vocal about how unreasonable I thought it was to reqire the 73 type. It seemed to serve no purpose other than to lower their pilot acquisition costs. Most major airlines hire pilots that have no experience in the a/c they fly because most pilots are moving up to the next rung in their career ladder. Current hiring excepted, most pilots applying to work at (fill in your major of choice) usually have been flying a/c other than Boeings or Airbus, whether it be F14/16/18, CRJ, ATR or GIV. I still don't understand why SWA is the only one to ask for a type rating to get hired, but it's their airline and they can require what they want. It is not discriminatory, it's discretionary.

What has changed for me is that based on the discussion in this thread I'm not as annoyed by the type rating policy as I used to be. I believe the 1000 PIC requirement to be completely reasonable and yet equally as arbitrary as the type rating requirement. If I am to be consistent in my beliefs and opinions I must therefore also conclude that, while still arbitrary, the type requirement is also reasonable. I'm glad I'm still teachable and not so entrenched in my opinions that a good debate can change my mind about something. Either that or I wasn't as angry about the type policy as I though I was.

 

[VADriver]

Thoughts on this thread

The SWA requirement for a type and 1000PIC turbine are supply and demand. SWA does it becuase they can still attract quality applicants after the screening...

I'm typed in the CRJ with less than 1000PIC. My airline went Tango Uniform. Now flying right seat in the CRJ. Can I log the PF legs as PIC even though I'm SIC?

No way. Emailed SWA and they said, we want PIC for its true intent... That you signed for and were the only one responsibile.

I repsect that....