SWA 1000 PIC Turbine Requirement

[SWAdude]

Learflyer,

Does that mean that at the time you were flying in those situations then both you and the guy you were flying with were logging the time as PIC.

SWAdude

 

[SWAdude]

Getting the bare minimum PIC time for the entire market and not just the lowest carrier hiring is just a little insurance plan that hopefully you'll never need.


Insurance that could make the difference of you being on the street or not.

SWAdude

 

[bugchaser]

It does seem a little strange that someone like myself with plenty of PIC turbine time would technically meet the hiring mins for SWA when someone flying right seat 121 might not. While we are on the subject, do you all think that a guy like me would have a shot with SW without any 121 time at all. My flying right now consists of ag flying in a turbine, flight instruction and corporate flying in a C421. I have wanted to work for SW long before it became a fad, I have just been stuck in a different kind of flying. Do I have a chance at an interview if I go get the type? If I did get lucky enough to gain an interview with them and did not get hired, what is there attitude towards trying again after getting more traditional experience. If this is going to be a one shot deal, maybe I should get the other experience and then put my name in the hat?

OK, let me have it.

 

[Treme]

In all fairness to the USAir guys hired in 1987 -- NOBODY required 1000 PIC turbine back then!!!

That is a relatively new requirement from the early to mid-90s. Up until around 1996 only Southwest and FedEx had that particular requirement.

Those guys did what ANY of us would have done in 1987. They jumped at the chance for a senority number with a major airline.

Seniority is king.

 

[Swerpipe]

1000 PIC requirement

Agree with Treme,

I decided to get 1000 PIC turbine when I started flying because of the SWA requirements but since I started flying JB now requires 1000 in a/c with GW > 20,000 lbs and Airtran requires 500 PIC turbine Part 121. With more than 1700 PIC turbine on a Metro Part 135, JB and Airtran are out of the question for me. So it seems that you may be able to acquire some of the requirements but others may appear out of nowhere after you choose your path which goes back to the zeroth law of aviation "aviation is not fair.... good luck!"

 

[SWAdude]

Bugchaser,

While I appreciate the level of experience that you do have, the requirements set by an airline is based on what they also would think is a best fit for the operation.

I would like to pose the thought this way. If you had to hire someone for your dusting operation and there were two guys in front of you.

Me, over 15,000 hours mostly in 135 and 121 airline operations or,

Him or her, 3000 total time of which most were in crop dusting operations.

Which requirements would you find to probably benefit your business the most.

Respectfully,

SWAdude

PS It never hurts to apply...stranger things have happened.

 

[bugchaser]

SWADUDE, I appreciate your response. You are exactly right. The person with Ag experience would be the choice. If they had the right attitude, etc. These two kinds of flying are worlds apart. Maybe I should rephrase the question to this: Given my present position and experience level, what would be the best route to the right seat at SWA? BTW, I know of at least one of your pilots that got the majority of his time flying a little yellow turbine.

 

[SWAdude]

Bugchaser,

I would try to get some crew experience. The questions we ask in the interview are based so much on that type of flying. I can say with experience that the people that interview that have little to no experience in crew coordination do not come off as sharp. The former fighter guys do well because of how close they work with others in their type of operation.

Good luck and always remember that nothing worthwhile comes easy.

SWAdude

 

[enigma]

Excuse me if I missed it in this thread, but doesn't SWA allow the PART 1 logging of pic turbine to count towards the 1000 pic if you are typed? I've even created a column in my logbook titled: "sole manipulator , turbine pic, far part 1." Is this wrong?

I am one of those guys whose been stuck in the right seat forever also. At the same time I will not sell myself short. If it's legal i'm going to do it!

learflyer, I've been in the same position you allude to being in. I was typed, current, and flying every other leg from the left seat. I was also entered in the flight log as PIC for my legs, However, my employer had never given me a business card that read "Captain". My position was with a Part 91 pure corporate operation, and I was entirely FAA legal to log my legs as PIC (without notation). I interviewed in 1998 and made it all the way past the pre-employment drug screening, but was shot down by a poorly timed phone call from my employer to SWA. He apparently considered himself important enough to demand SWA's attention and after demanding to know if they were going to hire me (he didn't want to have to replace me, or wanted to hire a replacement before I gave my notice, I never did figure out exactly which it was) he apparently made some comment about my not having much "Captain" experience, even though he had typed me three years prior. Needless to say, SWA sent me the thanks but no thanks letter. Had I understood this important distinction, I would have waited until I could log 1000 hours after the Captain designation before I tried to get hired by SWA. It wouldn't have taken me much longer and I might well be at SWA now.

BTW. None of us ever signed for the airplane. We were three pilots flying a rich mans Lear under part91. We logged the flights leg by leg and entered the flying pilots name as PIC. The only PIC designation was made at date of hire, or at date of pay raise.

The moral of the story is: even if you are FAR legal to log PIC under the strictest sense, don't represent it to SWA as such unless your employer gave you the responsibility for the flight.

Don't make the mistake I did. Make sure that your flight time is without question before you submit that app.

good luck,
enigma

PS, this subject should show up well in a search of this forum. We've beaten it to death many times in the past

 

[enigma]

Bugchaser

Bugchaser, Apply away. SWA seems to enjoy diversity amongst its flightcrews and your flight time would certainly set you apart from most of the rest of us. SWA used to use an interview technique called ehavioral description. They ask for you to explain how you handled certain situations in the past. A search should come up with a couple of pages of the questions, so search and then start prepping yourself to explain things like this: Tell me about a time when you experienced a fuel related emergency, or Tell me about a time when you observed a conflict between crewmembers.

If you get the interview call, set up some professional interview prep. SWA claims not to care as much about qualification as they care about personality. If you fit in, they will train you to be an airline pilot.

good luck,
enigma

 

[reepicheep]

While we're all debating the pros & cons and sometimes-injustices of the 1000 PIC requirement, let's at least be thankful that - so far at least, SW has resisted the LOR-mania that has infested the rest of the industry where without friends in the right places (or the audacity to "manufacture" one on the sly) you are out of luck. Building PIC time at least is something you have control over.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

2 Items:
Learflyer, I think I understand what U R saying. U R qualified in the aircraft to log PIC, and you are allowed by the FAA to log this time PIC. SWA says NO. You are not the one who signed for, and is responsible for the aircraft. ONLY if U sign for the airplane, and your name is on the flight release or flight plan as the PIC are you allowed to log PIC-it doesn’t matter how long U R at the controls, or who is in the other seat. YOU are the PIC and the other guys is NOT. I believe it even includes solo mil pilot training time. U R the only one in the T-38, for example, but the IP is ultimately responsible for he aircraft, so your solo time in the T-38 is NOT PIC as far as SWA goes.

Bugchaser: I have read several times that if U meet the mins for SWA, the WILL interview U. It may take quite a while if you’re far down the list, but they will get 2 U. I believe they’re the ONLY airline that makes this claim. Also, I’ve heard they like guys who REALLY want to fly for SWA, so multiple interview attempts R encouraged. I read about a guy who got hired at SWA on his SEVENTH (7th!!!) interview attempt!

Cliff
DTW

 

[learflyer]

From the SWA website:

Swa defines "pilot in command" as the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the acft during flight. This definition is taken from part 1 of the far. ( this i understand). Now, they go on to say: SOUTHWEST AIRLINES FURTHER ALLOWS LOGGING OF PIC AS FOLLOWS:

FOR AN ACFT REQUIRING A TYPE RATING: IF BOTH PILOTS ARE TYPE RATED, THE PILOT IN THE LEFT SEAT AND SOLE MANIPULATOR OF THE CONTROLS MAY LOG PIC.

This is all i'm really saying guys! Until I "officially" upgrade at my company, this is the only ray of sunshine I have!

 

[English]

I spoke with an assistant chief pilot in PHX while doing my type rating at K&S. He told our class that if both pilots (part 91 operation) are typed, then the pilot in the left seat who is sole manipulator can log PIC for the purposes of meeting SWA's PIC turbine requirement. He was very clear on the subject. While I was not geared to go to SWA, he took some interest in me and spoke with me about my flight time. Again, he reiterated that the time spent flying from the left seat, when sole manipulator, was to be counted a PIC turbine time for their application purposes.

The example used was two typed pilots in a Citation swapping seats and legs.

 

[firstthird]

atpcliff,
The guaranteed interview if you meet the mins at SWA is old information. At some point in the recent past (maybe a year ago) they changed the wording to say that they now do a competitive screen.
The way I understand it

old way - if you meet the mins you are in the stack and get interviewed in the order you applied (with the type rating getting you short line privileges when it was not required for interview)

new way - competitive screen that takes many factors into consideration and the company interviews who they consider the most competitive regardless of time in the app pile, etc. with no certainty that someone will ever get an interview (whereas old school everyone would eventually)

 

[avoidingmyboss]

From the SWA website:

Swa defines "pilot in command" as the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the acft during flight. This definition is taken from part 1 of the far. ( this i understand). Now, they go on to say: SOUTHWEST AIRLINES FURTHER ALLOWS LOGGING OF PIC AS FOLLOWS:

FOR AN ACFT REQUIRING A TYPE RATING: IF BOTH PILOTS ARE TYPE RATED, THE PILOT IN THE LEFT SEAT AND SOLE MANIPULATOR OF THE CONTROLS MAY LOG PIC.

This is all i'm really saying guys! Until I "officially" upgrade at my company, this is the only ray of sunshine I have!

Dude you might want to be careful, you would not want to get the interview and be shot down for a logbook problem thus losing credibility with SWA. As I understand it you have to sign for the aircraft. We have a new person where I work he is typed, he flies every other leg in the left seat but he is not considered Captain.

The loophole he is Captain in training that's his official title. Until his probation period is up I log PIC on every leg. I will split my time up after his probation period is up. The company will consider him a Captain at that point but for now I guess it’s sort of like being on high mins at the airlines. This might help you out and still be in good with the SWA when the time comes.

 

[enigma]

Dude you might want to be careful,

Dude, change the avatar, Please. Pretty Please with sugar on top. Seriously Please.

Please,
enigma

 

[learflyer]

Dude you might want to be careful, you would not want to get the interview and be shot down for a logbook problem thus losing credibility with SWA. As I understand it you have to sign for the aircraft. We have a new person where I work he is typed, he flies every other leg in the left seat but he is not considered Captain.

The loophole he is Captain in training that's his official title. Until his probation period is up I log PIC on every leg. I will split my time up after his probation period is up. The company will consider him a Captain at that point but for now I guess it’s sort of like being on high mins at the airlines. This might help you out and still be in good with the SWA when the time comes.

Oh, well. They need to take out that line off the website that says "SWA FURTHER ALLOWS LOGGING OF PIC IF YOUR TYPED blah blah blah. I had my hopes up there for a while. Thanks for all of the responses!

 

[avoidingmyboss]

Dude, change the avatar, Please. Pretty Please with sugar on top. Seriously Please.

Please,
enigma

Enigma, how could you not like Santa in the buff come on where is your compassion and the LUV for the large. This man is on the next episode of Airline he wants to fly like this and the gate agent can’t find anything that fits and he has to wear a 55 gal trash bag. LOL for me this is only a test run. A friend sent this picture to me to fit it for his avatar. I will replace mine with something else. I must warn you he will show up again but it won't be me.

 

[flyguppy]

I too do not agree with the 1000 hr turbine PIC requirement.

Having over a year of 737 Captain time (500 hrs) at a major 121 carrier before the downward spiral began, and over 5000 hrs SIC time (1800 in the 737).

Yet, I'm not even qualified to apply.

Oh, well.