Supreme Court Let Stand the Age 60 Rule

[FDJ2]

WSJ 05/02/05:

...The Supreme Court declined to hear a pilot group's challenge to a federal rule forcing them to retire at age 60. Justices let stand a lower ruling in favor of the Federal Aviation Administration, which says the retirement rule for commercial pilots is necessary for safety.

Officials have argued that pilots lose critical cognitive and motor skills as they age. The regulation, which was adopted during the 1950s, automatically bars airline pilots from flying after they reach 60, regardless of their health. A group of 12 pilots called that discriminatory and said their competency and health should be considered when deciding their ability to fly. The pilots' appeal was backed by low-fare carrier Southwest Airlines, which argued in a friend-of-the-court filing that FAA data shows older pilots are "as safe as, and in some cases safer than, their younger colleagues." (Butler v. FAA)...

 

[Baby Cakes]

Finally a decision from the old geezer Supremes that I agree with.

 

[StopNTSing]

Though I'm in the get rid of Age 60 camp, I'm glad it won't changed through the courts. There is already too much legislating from the bench these days as it is! If it is to be changed, let it succeed or fail through Congress.

 

[michael707767]

really, the supreme court almost had to rule this way. If they had intervened in the FAAs age 60 rule, by extension they would be invalidating every mandatory retirement age for various jobs. There are lots of jobs out there with mandatory retirement ages, most younger than 60 by the way.

 

[rvsm410]

I believe ATC controllers have a 56 year old age retirement age....

 

[bafanguy]

There are lots of jobs out there with mandatory retirement ages, most younger than 60 by the way.

I was aware of the pilot/controller retirement ages, but what other jobs have mandatory retirement ages younger than 60 ?

 

[michael707767]

I was aware of the pilot/controller retirement ages, but what other jobs have mandatory retirement ages younger than 60 ?

the ones I see the most are police officers and firemen. Check out the police and fire dept in your town. Odds are they have a mandatory retirement age.

 

[a320drivr]

Guess what? Controllers can now work past 56 because of the controller shortage. They make on avg. at the center of $150,000 a yr and have a very nice pension that will never be taken away. Most controllers with 10yrs make in excess of $200,000 with night over-rides and holiday pay.

 

[LJDRVR]

Guess what? Controllers can now work past 56 because of the controller shortage. They make on avg. at the center of $150,000 a yr and have a very nice pension that will never be taken away. Most controllers with 10yrs make in excess of $200,000 with night over-rides and holiday pay.

Yeah, but they don't get to look out the window, eat free peanuts and complain about everything.

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

why does WN have a dog in this fight? isn't their motto to keep the costs down at all costs?

 

[rightrudder]

WSJ 05/02/05:

...The Supreme Court declined to hear a pilot group's challenge to a federal rule forcing them to retire at age 60. Justices let stand a lower ruling in favor of the Federal Aviation Administration, which says the retirement rule for commercial pilots is necessary for safety.

Officials have argued that pilots lose critical cognitive and motor skills as they age. The regulation, which was adopted during the 1950s, automatically bars airline pilots from flying after they reach 60, regardless of their health. A group of 12 pilots called that discriminatory and said their competency and health should be considered when deciding their ability to fly. The pilots' appeal was backed by low-fare carrier Southwest Airlines, which argued in a friend-of-the-court filing that FAA data shows older pilots are "as safe as, and in some cases safer than, their younger colleagues." (Butler v. FAA)...

If the age 60 law applied to the Supreme Court, all but one of them would be retired.

 

[coolyokeluke]

Guess what? Controllers can now work past 56 because of the controller shortage. They make on avg. at the center of $150,000 a yr and have a very nice pension that will never be taken away. Most controllers with 10yrs make in excess of $200,000 with night over-rides and holiday pay.

Though they have job security if they make it through training I doubt the majority of controllers are making that much. I think it's like the statistics that pilots make 200k a year and work ___ days a month, true when you ignore many other factors. I'm sure the top controllers make that much but I doubt that's a reliable average.

 

[kelbill]

My recent perusal of Flying magazine backs up those pay figures, as well as the fact that my cuz is one at an ARTCC. Just bought a nice house on many acres. Sounds like a good deal to me. Of course they also have lots of variables in their pay contracts.

 

[a320drivr]

Sorry, but those pay figures are accurate. Straight from the GAO. (General Accounting Office)

 

[a320drivr]

Though they have job security if they make it through training I doubt the majority of controllers are making that much. I think it's like the statistics that pilots make 200k a year and work ___ days a month, true when you ignore many other factors. I'm sure the top controllers make that much but I doubt that's a reliable average.

The Figures are accurate. Sorry you dont believe them.

 

[320AV8R]

FDJ2,

Do you have a link to the article ?

 

[FNG320]

To bad the Flight Attendants don't have the same age 60 rule. I think there are some at every airline that need to retire. They've lost the edge and motivation to take care of the customers. Not all, but some. Plus, the scenery might get better too.

Just my opinion......

FNG

 

[Purpledog]

Nice! Who needs that stinkin' biased ALPA survey. The high court just reminded me that I will be going on my 'round the world surfing oddessy at 55 instead of 68!

 

[densoo]

FDJ2,

Do you have a link to the article ?

http://www.forbes.com/facesinthenews/2005/05/02/0502autofacescan08.html?partner=yahootix&referrer=

 

[ferlo]

11111111111111111111111111111111

 

[320AV8R]

http://www.forbes.com/facesinthenews/2005/05/02/0502autofacescan08.html?partner=yahootix&referrer=

Thanks.

 

[smellthejeta]

The Figures are accurate. Sorry you dont believe them.

I don't believe them either because they aren't accurate. Please provide a link to the relavent GAO report that backs you up.

I submit the following URL, http://www.careerjournal.com/salaryhiring/industries/airlines/20050405-mccartney.html, which is a link to a story in the Wall Street Journal talking about ATC careers. The relavent paragraph is as follows:

"There should be no shortage of applicants: The average salary and benefits total $161,000 a year. Some controllers in the New York area earned more than $200,000 last year, including overtime pay necessary because of understaffing."

For the purposes of this discussion, however, I don't believe that the benefits package is included in what somebody "makes". I also don't think that it is proper to include overtime pay in somebody's base salary.

The high six-figure salaries are seen at the busiest Centers (LAX, ATL, CLE, etc) and towers (LAX, ATL, ORD, etc). So, you MIGHT be able to say that most controllers with over ten years of experience AT THOSE PARTICULAR FACILITIES may make close to $200,000 per year in gross earnings. And, it is nearly impossible to see that kind of money if you don't have a large COLA adjustment that bumps up the pay. It's just like saying the average 777 CA at Delta or United makes $200k. It's not representative of the "average" pilot.. Some pilots will never see that kind of money, and likewise, some controllers will never see that kind of money. There are also quieter facilities like ABQ Center and Salt Lake Center where the facility rating and corresponding paycheck is not as high. In short, talking about how great the center controllers have it, well, talks about how great center controllers have it. They're not representative of the average controller.

Second, as far as the pension is concerned... If ATC is ever privatized, expect the pension to be the first to go. "Never say never" applies to ALL aspects of aviation.

 

[labbats]

I agree with the above poster. Pilots of all people should be the first to be wary of a media report on high wages.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Guess what? Controllers can now work past 56 because of the controller shortage. They make on avg. at the center of $150,000 a yr and have a very nice pension that will never be taken away. Most controllers with 10yrs make in excess of $200,000 with night over-rides and holiday pay.

Not completely true. I spoke with a friend in SLC who has to retire next month and he does NOT want to, but according to the FAA only those controllers who's evals are "exceptional" are "allowed to continue to work. The amount of "exceptional" controllers can be counted on one, maybe two hands. And from what I remember, supervisor's were very unlikely to sign someones eval as exceptional - personnality issues.
The FAA is going to fumbly-f--k around until it is far past critical and then try - keyword - try to catch up and it is not going to work. As more controllers hit 56 and more have mandatory overtime to compensate for less bodies in the facilities, the burn-out or "f--k this, I'm outta here" is going to accelerate the loss far beyond FAA comprehension.