stumper question

[Simon Says]

OK, here you are in your new C172 IFR enroute to KABC airport. KABC airport is uncontrolled with pilot operating lights. KABC airport has a VOR approach that brings you down to 500ft. It is night time, and in IMC conditions with the weather reported 10 mile Viz with 800 ft celings. You lose your radio 25 miles out. What do you do.

You still have all electrics
you have legal fuel
there is a class B airport 30 minutes away with the weather the same as KABC

 

[braidkid]

Hold over the IAF and begin approach at ETA filed on flight plan.

 

[TonyC]

Are the lights on at the other airport? Otherwise, you're going to be landing in the dark with no lights (unless you hang around on the chance someone else will turn them on, and NOT turn them off).


I'm not fond of landing at night with no runway or approach lighting, especially out of IMC.

 

[JB74]

Hmmm, my 200hr guess is shoot the approach down to the MDA and see if the lights are on (probably not since ceilings are below VFR and nobody should be in the pattern). If they are not, go missed and fly to your alternate.

 

[Simon Says]

Lights are off at KABC airport. (the point of the question "how do you get the lights on?")


Braid Kid you ended up in the weeds.

 

[RockyMnt1]

Stumper

Use your handheld radio that you faithfully carry with you (new batteries of course!) or use your cell phone to call ATC or FSS to see if they can help. DOn't know if airports have a phone number that you could call to get the lights on.

 

[FSB99]

why would he end up in the weeds?
it's more or less an emergency situation, doing an approach close to min's, with no runway lights, so i wouldn't worry about any legality problems of landing at night with no runway lights.
does the vor approach bring you striaght in or is it going to be a circle? i wouldn't circle without the runway lights, but i'd sure as hell fly straight in, hold the final approach course at mda, until i saw the runway.. if i didn't see the runway at the map, obviously go missed and attack plan B.
my point is, you may not see the runway until you're really close to it, but just because there's no edge lights, doesn't mean all you're going to see is a big black nothing. and you're in a 172.. all you need is what, 500 feet? may not be pretty, but i'd rather land ugly safely, than fly around ifr at night with no radios, busting into class B to find a runway that has lighting.

 

[TonyC]

Lights are off at KABC airport. (the point of the question "how do you get the lights on?")

DUH. I asked are they on at the OTHER airport, the one you didn't name.

If the point of your question was "how do you get the lights on?" then why didn't you ask "how do you get the lights on?"?

Can we assume when you said "you lose your radio" that you mean it's not working as opposed to it fell out of the airplane and you can't find it?

 

[skyking1976]

This is an example of why to set the xponder to 7600. Procede to the main airport in the Class B area at the MOCA. The class B has radar service and will identify you as lost comm. When you make your way over to the Class B airspace the controller should "clear a path" for you to shoot an approach to the closest runway. Given that ceilings are 800' agl and you're flying the approach at a blistering 70-75 knots in the 172, there should be ample time for light gun signals from the tower. It's not a pretty solution, but it keeps you from ending up in a ball of aluminum.

SK

 

[Ty Webb]

I would shoot the approach to see if the runway lights are on (just because the AFD says they are "pilot activated" it doesn't mean that they are not turned on. Some FBO's or airport managers will leave them on when they are still on the property).

If the runway is not illuminated, I would the proceed to the alternate. If the alternate is a Class B, it is still the alternate, just follow the lost comm procedures in the AIM.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

First, 7600 on the transponder. Then fly to and shoot the approach into KABC. Now if ATC is smart, they will physically send out someone to click up the lights for you (you can hope right). After that, I would hold a bit above KABC and then reshoot it into KABC (hope someone got smart and turned up the lights for you). Then it's off to the Bravo and a nice little ILS into paperwork hell.

 

[FN FAL]

This is an example of why to set the xponder to 7600. Procede to the main airport in the Class B area at the MOCA. The class B has radar service and will identify you as lost comm. When you make your way over to the Class B airspace the controller should "clear a path" for you to shoot an approach to the closest runway. Given that ceilings are 800' agl and you're flying the approach at a blistering 70-75 knots in the 172, there should be ample time for light gun signals from the tower. It's not a pretty solution, but it keeps you from ending up in a ball of aluminum.

SK

I can agree with that. They are going to vector everyone around you at the class B airport. If you can still hear audio on the radio, they will try to get you to communicate through your transponder as soon as they have figured out where your are going. Flying to the alternate in this case could be a right answer, it could also be a way to spend valuable time pi$$ing away fuel just to wind up at another airport without lights.

 

[Immelman]

1. 7600.
2. Got a handheld? Try it. Got a cell phone? Try that. If either work, you're in business.. if not...
3. Shoot a single approach to KABC, no lights? Go Missed.
4. None of this burn precious fuel hoping some soul will turn on the lights -- proceed to nearest airport with lights. That is a primary class B? great! lots of light there
5. Shoot an approach to the class B and land.

I'd rather send 20 airliners around who all have comms than come too close to running out of gas at night circling, hoping someone will turn on the lights.

 

[:-)]

OK, here you are in your new C172 IFR enroute .......................................
................................. What do you do?

Stay the heck out of a 172, that's what!

 

[Simon Says]

The answer is in the ATC handbook. It should be in the AIM too.

Hey Tony,
Just trying to have some fun with a fun question.

 

[mmmdonut]

The lights should default to low intensity... should they not? Especially if there is an approach into that airport.

 

[GetMyCoffee]

What's the big deal? I close my eyes in the flare anyway. Same **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** thing.

 

[minitour]

I Know I Know

Climb to 7,500', Squawk 7600, go to the middle of nowhere, turn left 050, and land in my front yard

 

[prpjt]

Does the VOR at airport#1 have a voice function?

 

[wxman13]

I was just thinking what prpjt wrote. Whatever happened to listening to the voice side of the VOR for instructions? Heck, ATC might even clear you to shoot the approach of your choice at the class B, with a simple Ident to confirm that you understood them.
-Peter

 

[UnstableAviator]

Since I just lost my radio (refer to first post), I'd try Comm 2 and watch for the lights when I broke out. After all, I am in a brand new C172 and even the most basic avionics package offered since 1997 has 2 radios.

In all seriousness, I carry a handheld in my bag just incase this situation occurs. I'm more worried about that dang alternator failing when I'm thirty minutes out in IMC and I'm relying on battery power. You can bet I'd be down to the bare minimum of electrical equipment to get there safely.

 

[JimNtexas]

Every airport around here that has pilot controlled lights leaves the lights on low all night.

Are there airports in the U.S. that just turn them completely off?

 

[UnstableAviator]

Are there airports in the U.S. that just turn them completely off?

You bet! I would venture to say most turned them off at night. I guess you could always look at the sectional for an airport without the star next to the L.

 

[skyking1976]

You bet! I would venture to say most turned them off at night. I guess you could always look at the sectional for an airport without the star next to the L.

Alamosa, CO (KALS) is one that goes completely dark. I had stopped there briefly at night and midway during my taxi to the runway the lights went out. Unfortunately the receiver for the PCL is in a bad spot for use on one end of the airport. So, I had to taxi back to get line of sight to the PCL receiver.

SK

 

[FlyChicaga]

Ok, I'm not even going to look up the regs or anything, and just say f*ck it and go straight to the Class B. This is an emergency situation, and therefore you must do what is necessary to ensure the safe conduct of the flight. If you don't think it is an emergency, you are wrong. Lost communications and not knowing what equipment will go next doesn't leave you with many options. If your radios failed, do you even have ILS/VOR capabilities? Or are you just saying you lost the COMM side? If you lost both, well that doesn't leave many options at 800 overcast. Go to Class B, which is a well-populated airport, under the 7600 code so at least there is some assistance available for you. It's only 30 minutes away. Don't burn up that fuel going for a peek at an airport which may be completely unlighted.

There is a point where you'll fly the book right into the ground.

 

[Simon Says]

Talking to a former ATC guy he told me about situations like this. If it is night time and an aircraft squawks 7600 ATC will turn on the lights at your destination airport for you. Plus they will turn the lights on any airport near your destination airport.

If you are VFR at night squawking 1200 and then squawk 7600 ATC will start turning on airport lights in your vincinity. I just thought that was pretty cool.

 

[TonyC]

Talking to a former ATC guy he told me about situations like this. If it is night time and an aircraft squawks 7600 ATC will turn on the lights at your destination airport for you. Plus they will turn the lights on any airport near your destination airport.

Did he explain HOW they would turn on lights at an uncontrolled field?

 

[Ty Webb]

Ok, I'm not even going to look up the regs or anything, and just say f*ck it and go straight to the Class B. This is an emergency situation, and therefore you must do what is necessary to ensure the safe conduct of the flight. If you don't think it is an emergency, you are wrong. Lost communications and not knowing what equipment will go next doesn't leave you with many options. If your radios failed, do you even have ILS/VOR capabilities? Or are you just saying you lost the COMM side? If you lost both, well that doesn't leave many options at 800 overcast. Go to Class B, which is a well-populated airport, under the 7600 code so at least there is some assistance available for you. It's only 30 minutes away. Don't burn up that fuel going for a peek at an airport which may be completely unlighted.

There is a point where you'll fly the book right into the ground.

And there is a point where you are failing to follow an established procedure, which is the other end of that spectrum. Welcome to the world of PIC decision-making.

Lost comm is not an emergency, and there is a procedure to follow. No one said there was an electrical fire or any emergency. Follow the established procedure, unless there is a real emergency.

 

[Simon Says]

Did he explain HOW they would turn on lights at an uncontrolled field?

No, I just assume they called the FBO or just try and tune the frequency. They could even call an aircraft nearby to click them up. I just thought it was kindof neat.

Hey TonyC,
I heard the final report for the 727 accident in Tallahasse is suppose to come out soon. I hope Fred has a plan for insurance. Good Luck to the crew and hope for a positive out come.

 

[TonyC]

Hey TonyC,
I heard the final report for the 727 accident in Tallahasse is suppose to come out soon. I hope Fred has a plan for insurance. Good Luck to the crew and hope for a positive out come.

The "Sunshine Hearing" was yesterday - - News Release is on the NTSB website. ALPA released a response applauding the NTSB's recognition of fatigue as a causal factor, but expressing disappointment that no more was done to explore the deficiencies of the PAPI system covered with early morning dew. The NTSB also blamed the First Officer's colorblindness - - ALPA pointed out that the other two crewmembers saw RED over WHITE, so colorblindness wasn't an issue. Overall, I'd say it looks like the crew has a long road ahead.

As for Insurance, that's not a problem. It seems like it's always a threat that's supposed to make us "straighten up and fly right," but I think it's just a myth.