Stop extending Nja brothers

[Wankel7]

I don't know why this statement irritates me so much because I was one of the lucky ones that found gainful employment post-furlough. I guess it's because you've demonstrated that you really have no idea how bad it was in 2010.

As one of the furloughed guys - it's easy for me to see how someone could be out of aviation after 4 years. It goes something like this:

You get furloughed in the middle of the worst economic conditions in 70 years. There are VERY few aviation jobs out there - I had been flying Boeings prior to NetJets and couldn't even get a look from regionals. Getting a job in a bizjet was even tougher.

Virtually EVERY full-time job required you to be typed AND current. If you weren't, you started with two-strikes. All too often NetJets on my resume was strike 3. I know of at least twice that my resume was round-filed just because of NetJets.

I thought for sure getting hired at NJA under such competitive conditions would make me stand out - unfortunately it did, but in a bad way.

I was fortunate enough to find a full-time job outside of aviation that was flexible enough to allow me to do contract work in some Citations and a Falcon 900. At the end of 2010 I managed to turn a contract gig into an SIC rating on a XL, which somehow turned into a full-time PIC position flying for a great family.

Without the contract flying I could have easily gone past the one year mark without flying and found myself in no-man's land like so many of our brothers and sisters.

After a year, besides not being current in a specific type, you're not current in anything. Do you have any idea how many positions REQUIRE 200hrs in the preceding 12 mos. I'm guessing - based on your demonstrated cluelessness - that you don't, so I'll tell you. It's most jobs.

That's right - most jobs require a couple hundred hours in the preceding year. If you haven't been flying for over a year, you're now virtually unemployable.

And that's how you end up out of aviation - despite all of these phantom companies "screaming for pilots". I'm still interested in hearing about them when you get a chance...

If you could include in your response which fleet you're on I would appreciate that as well. That way I can avoid it at all costs - lest we end up stuck together someday.

Excellent post!

 

[acaTerry]

Good grief! We've already had one first officer fired in the last week!

Make that TWO.

 

[LAZYB]

+1

Well said.

Look forward to sharing a beer. If not recall Indoc, on the road. :beer:

I don't know why this statement irritates me so much because I was one of the lucky ones that found gainful employment post-furlough. I guess it's because you've demonstrated that you really have no idea how bad it was in 2010.

As one of the furloughed guys - it's easy for me to see how someone could be out of aviation after 4 years. It goes something like this:

You get furloughed in the middle of the worst economic conditions in 70 years. There are VERY few aviation jobs out there - I had been flying Boeings prior to NetJets and couldn't even get a look from regionals. Getting a job in a bizjet was even tougher.

Virtually EVERY full-time job required you to be typed AND current. If you weren't, you started with two-strikes. All too often NetJets on my resume was strike 3. I know of at least twice that my resume was round-filed just because of NetJets.

I thought for sure getting hired at NJA under such competitive conditions would make me stand out - unfortunately it did, but in a bad way.

I was fortunate enough to find a full-time job outside of aviation that was flexible enough to allow me to do contract work in some Citations and a Falcon 900. At the end of 2010 I managed to turn a contract gig into an SIC rating on a XL, which somehow turned into a full-time PIC position flying for a great family.

Without the contract flying I could have easily gone past the one year mark without flying and found myself in no-man's land like so many of our brothers and sisters.

After a year, besides not being current in a specific type, you're not current in anything. Do you have any idea how many positions REQUIRE 200hrs in the preceding 12 mos. I'm guessing - based on your demonstrated cluelessness - that you don't, so I'll tell you. It's most jobs.

That's right - most jobs require a couple hundred hours in the preceding year. If you haven't been flying for over a year, you're now virtually unemployable.

And that's how you end up out of aviation - despite all of these phantom companies "screaming for pilots". I'm still interested in hearing about them when you get a chance...

If you could include in your response which fleet you're on I would appreciate that as well. That way I can avoid it at all costs - lest we end up stuck together someday.

 

[Hawkered]

I don't know why this statement irritates me so much because I was one of the lucky ones that found gainful employment post-furlough. I guess it's because you've demonstrated that you really have no idea how bad it was in 2010.

As one of the furloughed guys - it's easy for me to see how someone could be out of aviation after 4 years. It goes something like this:

You get furloughed in the middle of the worst economic conditions in 70 years. There are VERY few aviation jobs out there - I had been flying Boeings prior to NetJets and couldn't even get a look from regionals. Getting a job in a bizjet was even tougher.

Virtually EVERY full-time job required you to be typed AND current. If you weren't, you started with two-strikes. All too often NetJets on my resume was strike 3. I know of at least twice that my resume was round-filed just because of NetJets.

I thought for sure getting hired at NJA under such competitive conditions would make me stand out - unfortunately it did, but in a bad way.

I was fortunate enough to find a full-time job outside of aviation that was flexible enough to allow me to do contract work in some Citations and a Falcon 900. At the end of 2010 I managed to turn a contract gig into an SIC rating on a XL, which somehow turned into a full-time PIC position flying for a great family.

Without the contract flying I could have easily gone past the one year mark without flying and found myself in no-man's land like so many of our brothers and sisters.

After a year, besides not being current in a specific type, you're not current in anything. Do you have any idea how many positions REQUIRE 200hrs in the preceding 12 mos. I'm guessing - based on your demonstrated cluelessness - that you don't, so I'll tell you. It's most jobs.

That's right - most jobs require a couple hundred hours in the preceding year. If you haven't been flying for over a year, you're now virtually unemployable.

And that's how you end up out of aviation - despite all of these phantom companies "screaming for pilots". I'm still interested in hearing about them when you get a chance...

If you could include in your response which fleet you're on I would appreciate that as well. That way I can avoid it at all costs - lest we end up stuck together someday.

Borg,

You've already demonstrated that you found a way to gain full-time employment, stay current and develop a relationship with a different employer-even though the economy sucks!

Yet I'm clueless?

Already you've set yourself apart from somebody telling me that my teeth will get rearranged trying to put my kids through school.

You don't see a difference?

Yes, I worked at a major and no I didn't pay for a job!

 

[Hawkered]

Make that TWO.

Really?? Is this real?

 

[jetlag7]

Really?? Is this real?

Yes. Hostage Number 3 is currently in the cross-hairs.....

 

[BORG]

Borg,



You've already demonstrated that you found a way to gain full-time employment, stay current and develop a relationship with a different employer-even though the economy sucks!



Yet I'm clueless?



Already you've set yourself apart from somebody telling me that my teeth will get rearranged trying to put my kids through school.



You don't see a difference?



Yes, I worked at a major and no I didn't pay for a job!

Yes - you are clueless. Or you CHOOSE to IGNORE the realities that we faced in 2010.

I was extraordinarily lucky to find an employer at a full-time job (outside of aviation!!!) that was understanding enough to allow me to leave for days and weeks at a time to fly contract trips. I still work there on the side by the way - and always will.

I had to take the job outside of aviation because, despite sending out hundreds of resumes, I couldn't get even a regional to look at me. I had thousands of hours, including the coveted 1,000TPIC, a master's degree in a related field, and had demonstrated my ability to compete for a job at NJA and I couldn't even get called for an interview. From anyone.

How many non-aviation jobs do you suppose offer the type of flexibility that mine did?

Is it the other furloughees fault that they weren't as LUCKY to have a similar situation?

Do you have any idea how many furloughees are working at non-aviation jobs still today? Because they have to?!

For the life of me, I have no idea why the union cut us off from the main board. When I was furloughed from an ALPA carrier I had access until the airline ceased to exist. At this point the furloughees access to the main njasap board is more or less a moot point, but I think it would have been good for the active pilots to have read-only access to the furloughed side of the board.

Maybe then people like you could understand a little bit of what we were facing. But who am I kidding - based on your posts on this website it's easy to see you couldn't care less.


The only unity I've seen out of njasap is on the furloughed board (including the two union guys that still post there). Maybe (some of) the active pilots could have learned something over there...

 

[imacdog]

Hawkered just won't get it. The union chose to prevent the furloughees from communicating with active pilots, putting them out of sight and out of mind. The active pilots have no idea the stories of hardship that have affected many of the furloughed.

 

[Pervis]

Hawkered just won't get it. The union chose to prevent the furloughees from communicating with active pilots, putting them out of sight and out of mind. The active pilots have no idea the stories of hardship that have affected many of the furloughed.

Many of us have experienced hardships before life at Netjets. How much communication do you think I got from RAPA in 1991? Zero, NADA, zilch. It sucks no matter where you are furloughed from for whatever length of time. I have a couple of those shirts, long and short sleeve.

Just what could the union or any one active pilot have done to speed up recalls? While many of us disagree with the message board decision, it did nothing to change the economic reality or the decisions by management.

Instead of being hell bent on getting even with the union (not you personally), or those that extended (very few), or those on the 18 day (almost half the pilots), or....., place your focus where it belongs. On an EMT that lied on a regular basis regarding supplemental lift. An EMT that compares us to FedEx and UPS yet want concessions, in spite of record profits. Not one pilot, active or otherwise, gets pleasure in furloughs. Management, however, loves to see pilot against pilot, and the winner does not include either pilot group unless we unite.

Just remember whatever you vote on, whether it's good for junior or senior, you'll experience both-eventually. Your eyes were placed in front of your face to look forward, not backward.

 

[imacdog]

The lack of communication from the union is why you get the ignorant comments from those like Hawkered. Unity my ass.

 

[Pervis]

The lack of communication from the union is why you get the ignorant comments from those like Hawkered. Unity my ass.

You get about as much as the current active list-the twice weekly email. Except the occassional response on the boards. Just remember your crew mates and the next CBA will be here LONG after those in elected office are back on the line.

 

[jetlag7]

Many of us have experienced hardships before life at Netjets. How much communication do you think I got from RAPA in 1991? Zero, NADA, zilch. It sucks no matter where you are furloughed from for whatever length of time. I have a couple of those shirts, long and short sleeve.

Just what could the union or any one active pilot have done to speed up recalls? While many of us disagree with the message board decision, it did nothing to change the economic reality or the decisions by management.

Instead of being hell bent on getting even with the union (not you personally), or those that extended (very few), or those on the 18 day (almost half the pilots), or....., place your focus where it belongs. On an EMT that lied on a regular basis regarding supplemental lift. An EMT that compares us to FedEx and UPS yet want concessions, in spite of record profits. Not one pilot, active or otherwise, gets pleasure in furloughs. Management, however, loves to see pilot against pilot, and the winner does not include either pilot group unless we unite.

Just remember whatever you vote on, whether it's good for junior or senior, you'll experience both-eventually. Your eyes were placed in front of your face to look forward, not backward.

This .....

 

[imacdog]

You get about as much as the current active list-the twice weekly email. Except the occassional response on the boards. Just remember your crew mates and the next CBA will be here LONG after those in elected office are back on the line.

The same crewmembers that believe that being furloughed during a time of hiring is the same as being a furloughed during the worst economy in decades and in the middle of the airline age 65 stagnation?

 

[Pervis]

The same crewmembers that believe that being furloughed during a time of hiring is the same as being a furloughed during the worst economy in decades and in the middle of the airline age 65 stagnation?

What are you talking about? Ask the USAir guys furloughed in 1988, or the thousands furloughed in the early 90's-me included-how much hiring was going on. That, however, is irrelevant. Your furlough doesn't hurt any more than any other. They all suck.

 

[imacdog]

Having been furloughed twice, I can certainly tell you this one hurt more than the last one. But don't take mine, or any other furloughee's word for it. Stick your fingers in your ears and continue to say "lalalalalalalala".

 

[Pervis]

Having been furloughed twice, I can certainly tell you this one hurt more than the last one. But don't take mine, or any other furloughee's word for it. Stick your fingers in your ears and continue to say "lalalalalalalala".

Did you not gather from my posts that I too was furlough more than once? I'm still paying off debt accumulated more than 20 years ago from the last one. You are not the only one affected by a crappy job market. Yours is simply more recent, so I can understand your frustration. Just don't take it out on those still employed. No lala involved.

 

[BORG]

Did you not gather from my posts that I too was furlough more than once? I'm still paying off debt accumulated more than 20 years ago from the last one. You are not the only one affected by a crappy job market. Yours is simply more recent, so I can understand your frustration. Just don't take it out on those still employed. No lala involved.

Let's just stipulate that all furloughs suck equally (even though yours weren't affected by an industry-wide lack of normal attrition due to age 65). Many active guys have been through it too. We appreciate your understanding the frustration, but I think you misunderstand what the frustration is about.

Ponder two questions -

1. When you were furloughed, how did you feel about people picking up open time or working more than a standard line?
2. How do you think the active pilots are doing with respect to extended days and the 18-day schedule?

I think it's been pathetic.

I have made more money and spent more time at home in the past 3-years than I would have as an SIC at NJA so I generally don't make an issue of it. But can anyone honestly blame some of the other guys for being frustrated with the active group? How many active guys and union leaders are on the 18 day schedule? How many of those same people are complaining of being overworked?! How can anyone, with a straight face, say that the number of people on the 18-day schedule has no impact on the number of pilots needed? I understand it's everyone's "contractual right" blah, blah, blah. A united pilot group does not do it (beyond what is required for minimum percentages and small fleets).

I think that's "what is being taken out" on those still employed.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Hawkered just won't get it. The union chose to prevent the furloughees from communicating with active pilots, putting them out of sight and out of mind. The active pilots have no idea the stories of hardship that have affected many of the furloughed.

Some of us do. I have kept in touch with several of our furloughed guys and know exactly what they're going through. My wife was furloughed (twice) early in her career and earned a strike star on her ALPA wings to boot.

Many other pilots at NJA have similar experiences, mostly first hand. So it's not exactly fair to say none of the active pilots understand your hardships.

That said, it was mind-boggling to me when we joined the NJASAP circus (post-furlough) to discover you guys didn't have access to the main boards. Silly.

You'll get to participate in the schoolyard food fight soon enough because the more I read, the more convinced I am that the company will have to run the entire list to fill all the spots.

 

[amflightpilot]

I hope you're right Gut.

AMF

 

[Pervis]

Borg, I get it. Life takes turns against all to various degrees, and we all think we have it worse than the other guy. I have to ask though. I got 26 weeks of unemployment at a small amount based upon a crappy income. How many weeks did those furloughed in this decade get? Neither was enough to live by, but zero is a lot less than not enough beyond that 26 week point.

 

[BORG]

Borg, I get it. Life takes turns against all to various degrees, and we all think we have it worse than the other guy. I have to ask though. I got 26 weeks of unemployment at a small amount based upon a crappy income. How many weeks did those furloughed in this decade get? Neither was enough to live by, but zero is a lot less than not enough beyond that 26 week point.

I don't claim to have it any worse than any one else. I don't think anyone would argue though, that the conditions of the past several years are as bad as they have been in decades. Surely you've heard of the "jobless recovery".

I see you ignored everything I said in my post about the real reason some of the furloughees are frustrated with the active group...

The Cliff's Notes version - it's not that we're furloughed or that we have it worse than anyone else, it's the (apparent) lack of unity.

P.S. I've never taken a dime in unemployment so I can't answer your question about that.