Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Still think military pilots got it easy?

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Joined
Feb 15, 2003
Posts
1,178
[url="http://www.baltimoresun.com/images/standard/baltimoresuncom_175bw.gif"]http://www.baltimoresun.com/images/standard/baltimoresuncom_175bw.gif[/url]



http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-pows0215,1,3861090.story?coll=bal-home-headlines From the Los Angeles Times

White House turns tables on former American POWs

Gulf War pilots tortured by Iraqis fight Bush administration in trying to collect compensation already awarded to them



By David G. Savage
Times Staff Writer

February 15, 2005

WASHINGTON — The latest chapter in the legal history of torture is being written by American pilots who were beaten and abused by Iraqis during the 1991 Persian Gulf War. And it has taken a strange twist.

The Bush administration is fighting the former prisoners of war in court, trying to prevent them from collecting nearly $1 billion from Iraq that a federal judge awarded them as compensation for their torture at the hands of Saddam Hussein's regime.

The rationale: Today's Iraqis are good guys, and they need the money.

The case abounds with ironies. It pits the U.S. government squarely against its own war heroes and the Geneva Convention.

Many of the pilots were tortured in the same Iraqi prison, Abu Ghraib, where American soldiers abused Iraqis 15 months ago. Those Iraqi victims, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld has said, deserve compensation from the United States.

But the American victims of Iraqi torturers are not entitled to similar payments from Iraq, the U.S. government says.

"It seems so strange to have our own country fighting us on this," said retired Air Force Col. David W. Eberly, the senior officer among the former POWs.

The case, now being appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, tests whether "state sponsors of terrorism" can be sued in the U.S. courts for torture, murder or hostage-taking. The court is expected to decide in the next two months whether to hear the appeal.

Congress opened the door to such claims in 1996, when it lifted the shield of sovereign immunity — which basically prohibits lawsuits against foreign governments — for any nation that supports terrorism. At that time, Iraq was one of seven nations identified by the State Department as sponsoring terrorist activity. The 17 Gulf War POWs looked to have a very strong case when they first filed suit in 2002. They had been undeniably tortured by a tyrannical regime, one that had $1.7 billion of its assets frozen by the U.S. government.

The picture changed, however, when the United States invaded Iraq and toppled Hussein from power nearly two years ago. On July 21, 2003, two weeks after the Gulf War POWs won their court case in U.S. District Court, the Bush administration intervened to argue that their claims should be dismissed.

"No amount of money can truly compensate these brave men and women for the suffering that they went through at the hands of this very brutal regime and at the hands of Saddam Hussein," White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan told reporters when asked about the case in November 2003.

Government lawyers have insisted, literally, on "no amount of money" going to the Gulf War POWs. "These resources are required for the urgent national security needs of rebuilding Iraq," McClellan said.

The case also tests a key provision of the Geneva Convention, the international law that governs the treatment of prisoners of war. The United States and other signers pledged never to "absolve" a state of "any liability" for the torture of POWs.

Former military lawyers and a bipartisan group of lawmakers have been among those who have urged the Supreme Court to take up the case and to strengthen the law against torturers and tyrannical regimes.

"Our government is on the wrong side of this issue," said Jeffrey F. Addicott, a former Army lawyer and director of the Center for Terrorism Law at St. Mary's University in San Antonio. "A lot of Americans would scratch their heads and ask why is our government taking the side of Iraq against our POWs."

The POWs' journey through the court system began with the events of Jan. 17, 1991 — the first day of the Gulf War. In response to Hussein's invasion of Kuwait five months earlier, the United States, as head of a United Nations coalition, launched an air attack on Iraq, determined to drive Iraqi forces from the oil-rich Gulf state. On the first day of the fighting, a jet piloted by Marine Corps Lt. Col. Clifford Acree was downed over Iraq by a surface-to-air missile. He suffered a neck injury ejecting from the plane and was soon taken prisoner by the Iraqis. Blindfolded and handcuffed, he was beaten until he lost consciousness. His nose was broken, his skull was fractured, and he was threatened with having his fingers cut off. He lost 30 pounds during his 47 days of captivity.

Eberly was shot down two days later and lost 45 pounds during his ordeal. He and several other U.S. service members were near starvation when they were freed. Other POWs had their eardrums ruptured and were urinated on during their captivity at Abu Ghraib.

All the while, their families thought they were dead because the Iraqis did not notify the U.S. government of their capture.

In April 2002, the Washington law firm of Steptoe & Johnson filed suit on behalf of the 17 former POWs and 37 of their family members. The suit, Acree vs. Republic of Iraq, sought monetary damages for the "acts of torture committed against them and for pain, suffering and severe mental distress of their families."

Usually, foreign states have a sovereign immunity that shields them from being sued. But in the Anti-Terrorism Act of 1996, Congress authorized U.S. courts to award "money damages … against a foreign state for personal injury or death that was caused by an act of torture, extrajudicial killing, aircraft sabotage [or] hostage taking."

This provision was "designed to hold terrorist nations accountable for the torture of Americans and to deter rogue nations from engaging in such actions in the future," Sens. Susan Collins (R-Maine) and George Allen (R-Va.) said last year in a letter to Attorney General John Ashcroft that urged him to support the POWs' claim.

The case came before U.S. District Judge Richard W. Roberts. There was no trial; Hussein's regime ignored the suit, and the U.S. State Department chose to take no part in the case.

On July 7, 2003, the judge handed down a long opinion that described the abuse suffered by the Gulf War POWs, and he awarded them $653 million in compensatory damages. He also assessed $306 million in punitive damages against Iraq. Lawyers for the POWs asked him to put a hold on some of Iraq's frozen assets.

No sooner had the POWs celebrated their victory than they came up against a new roadblock: Bush administration lawyers argued that the case should be thrown out of court on the grounds that Bush had voided any such claims against Iraq, which was now under U.S. occupation. The administration lawyers based their argument on language in an emergency bill, passed shortly after the U.S. invasion of Iraq, approving the expenditure of $80 billion for military operations and reconstruction efforts. One clause in the legislation authorized the president to suspend the sanctions against Iraq that had been imposed as punishment for the invasion of Kuwait more than a decade earlier.

The president's lawyers said this clause also allowed Bush to remove Iraq from the State Department's list of state sponsors of terrorism and to set aside pending monetary judgments against Iraq.

When the POWs' case went before the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit,, the three-judge panel ruled unanimously for the Bush administration and threw out the lawsuit.

"The United States possesses weighty foreign policy interests that are clearly threatened by the entry of judgment for [the POWs] in this case," the appeals court said.

The administration also succeeded in killing a congressional resolution supporting the POWs' suit. "U.S. courts no longer have jurisdiction to hear cases such as those filed by the Gulf War POWs," then-Deputy Secretary of State Richard L. Armitage said in a letter to lawmakers. "Moreover, the president has ordered the vesting of blocked Iraqi assets for use by the Iraqi people and for reconstruction."

Already frustrated by the turn of events, the former POWs were startled when Rumsfeld said he favored awarding compensation to the Iraqi prisoners who were abused by the U.S. military at Abu Ghraib.

"I am seeking a way to provide appropriate compensation to those detainees who suffered grievous and brutal abuse and cruelty at the hands of a few members of the U.S. military. It is the right thing to do," Rumsfeld told a Senate committee last year.

By contrast, the government's lawyers have refused to even discuss a settlement in the POWs' case, say lawyers for the Gulf War veterans. "They were willing to settle this for pennies on the dollar," said Addicott, the former Army lawyer.

The last hope for the POWs rests with the Supreme Court. Their lawyers petitioned the high court last month to hear the case. Significantly, it has been renamed Acree vs. Iraq and the United States.

The POWs say the justices should decide the "important and recurring question [of] whether U.S. citizens who are victims of state-sponsored terrorism [may] seek redress against terrorist states in federal court."

This week, Justice Department lawyers are expected to file a brief urging the court to turn away the appeal.

Copyright © 2005, The Los Angeles Times
 
I would guess that you are in favor of slave reparations as well...

Whose regime was responsible for the torture? Who was in charge at the time? Who is directly culpable in the abuse of the prisoners? The Iraqi people had precious little to do with it. The government in power at the time was responsible.

I would bet there are some real admirable trial lawyers behind this case. It is interesting that you are still trying to defeat the guy that won the election... get over it Vlad...

And moderators: move this off the general board...
 
One more good reason to turn one's back on the bush administration.

That, and his eyes are too close together.
 
Reason no. 989

Is this a Democracy or a Hipocrisy?

This must be part of his/their "Tort Reform".
 
You're just another Bush bashing sore loser who at every opportunity tries to discredit him . Get over it.
 
$1,000,000,000,000/17... From a freed people who were held hostage themselves?

No offense, but that's a tad greedy.
 
I think this is my favorite part:

Government lawyers have insisted, literally, on "no amount of money" going to the Gulf War POWs. "These resources are required for the urgent national security needs of rebuilding Iraq," McClellan said.

So rather than compensate the men and women who help to keep us safe and free, we need that money to rebuild Iraq...for national security needs...

does anyone else find that incredibly ironic? I mean...after we're done bombing Iraq back to the stone-age, how much of a national security threat are they going to be for a while?

-mini
 
minitour said:
does anyone else find that incredibly ironic?
-mini

There is nothing about the Bush administration that is "incredibly" ironic. It is all credibly ironic. A fantasy of double-speak and hypocrisy.

There is no doubt that he won (the election). There is also no doubt that the American people lost.

Nevertheless, there should be no surprise that an administration which itself redifines and authorizes torture, seeks to avoid any responsibility for it. It doesn't matter to them if American POW's lose in the process. They don't want the US to be sued by the Iraqis that we have abused, nor do they wish to be held accountable for their own violations of the Geneva convention. After all, they might even wind up being identified as "war criminals". We can't have that, and the sacrifice of a few American POW's to avoid the possibility is therefore justifiable.
 
Isn't getting shot at, shot down, tortured, killed and whatever else part of the risks one takes when at war?

Since when does anyone get anything punitive from these activities. I always thought the veterans received life time medical and a pension for their service and not a 100 million for getting put in harms way.

It is a chance you take when you sign up. If these guys get the cash it is just like saying the tax payers get sued since we are funding Iraqi rebuild anyway. The money ultimately will come from us, not them.

What about all the Vietnam vets and Japanese POW’s? They didn’t get millions for their sacrifice, I think this argument is ridiculous.

If the same regime was still in power than it would be a different story but they are not.
 
Last edited:
What is with this mentality that just because something bad happened to you, you should become very rich. Oh, maybe it has something to do with your lawyer getting rich too. Seriously, if there was any rational to this, it could only be to punish the govt that carried out these acts. I may be wrong but I think they've already been punished. Not sure what would be the rational behind punishing the current govt in Baghdad.

Having said all that, why is it that EVERY time an American is captured anywhere, they are tortured, raped, or even beheaded and the world just yawns? I remember hearing that the Abu Ghraib debacle was so awful because we are giving our enemies an excuse to not follow the Geneva Convention regarding any of our own servicemen they might capture. WTF??? When was the last time that anybody even gave a nod at the Geneva Convetion when they captured Americans? No, they just do what they want and half the world applauds.
 
It's part of the job people. Service to one's country. Not the other way around.
 
Last edited:
MarineGrunt said:
It's part of the job people. Service to one's country. Not the other way around.

I'll agree to that, but why do we find it necessary to spend our money to rebuild a different country when this country could use some help too?

-mini
 
TDTURBO said:
Isn't getting shot at, shot down, tortured, killed and whatever else part of the risks one takes when at war?

tdturbo said:
I always thought the veterans received life time medical and a pension for their service

Do you ever get that little voice in your head that tells you you might be about to say something really dumb? Sometimes you should listen to it.
 
Please, enlighten me....



hawg2hawk said:
Do you ever get that little voice in your head that tells you you might be about to say something really dumb? Sometimes you should listen to it.
 
some enlightenment...take it or leave it

TDTURBO said:
Please, enlighten me....

Putting yourself in harms way, and brutal illegal torture are two different things ace!

POWs are non-combatants (geneva conventions, law of armed conflict)

of course you are not required to know such things, but before you insult the men and women who go to war for your freedoms, educate yourself

...or just open your mouth and sound foolish
 
The most interesting part of the story to me was that Iraq was identified in 1996 as one of 17 countries that sponsored international terrorism. Gee, wasn't CLINTON in office in 1996? Democrats? All those who have said that Iraq never had anything to do with terrorism? Isn't that the Clinton administration stating that Iraq was a sponsor of international terrorism?
 
Bush, Clinton, Bush, does it matter?

You know, I don't care that Bush won. Yeah, he did. So what?

I'm not a Liberal, or Conservative, or NeoCon or whatever title you give me.

If you make up your mind about something before you hear the story you are ignorant (i.e. Conservatives automatically Pro-Life, Pro-Gun, blah, blah OR Liberals automatically Pro-Choice, Pro-whatever...)

So I see this story in the Baltimore Sun, and I call Bush out on it, just like I would Clinton. I think this just goes to show you his "morality" , and how much he really "cares".

I met Bush, before he became president (didn't really care for him, maybe it was his charm) . He's the type of guy that would be good at Frat parties or afternoon bbq's. Anyways he IS the President, but he does NOT speak for me.

P1
 
inline said:
You're just another Bush bashing sore loser who at every opportunity tries to discredit him . Get over it.

Sore Loser? nah hardly...

I don't wake up every morning and say "**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**, Bush is in the White House". My day to day life would not differ much whoever you had in there (The White House). So you see, I don't bash Bush, praise Kerry, Clinton (yeah he was smooth with the ladies),

I'm Pro-Life, Anti-gun, Marriage = Man+Woman, I like Bill Maher, but I listen to Rush, I read The Atlantic Monthly, but also The American Spectator (Free in the LGA U.Shuttle Concourse). Label me as you will. Whatev'

P1
 
SennaP1 said:
I'm Pro-Life, Anti-gun, Marriage = Man+Woman, I like Bill Maher, but I listen to Rush, I read The Atlantic Monthly, but also The American Spectator (Free in the LGA U.Shuttle Concourse). Label me as you will. Whatev'

P1


Ah yes, bit you do have fine taste in F1 drivers. I miss the days of Senna/Mansell.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom