Steps to get into the majors and timeline

[MooneyPilot]

So far I am doing the CFI thing.. Then when I get my hours up go to a commuter, get some turbine time,,then what after then? What are they hour requirements for majors??How many years am i looking at

 

[Ty Webb]

Probably seven to ten years would be my guess.

Two years to get picked up by a regional.

Three years to upgrade.

After that, it really depends on what cycle the industry is in. It might be on an upswing by then, so you get a thousand PIC and out, or you might be stuck or making lateral moves. It all depends on the industry, and the industry ain't looking too healthy . . . . . . http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/markets/rosssnel/10191837.html


Good Luck. It's going to be a while, so might as well enjoy each step while you're there.

 

[stb]

There are to many variables..

for a timeline.
But looking at history, you might get an idea.
Looking back to the early 90's, massive hiring stopped in late 88 or early 89. Eastern, Pan Am were defunct and TWA was selling off massive chunks of their operation.
Most of the airlines had around 500 to 1000+ furloughs.
The majors did not replace retired pilots during that time with furloughed pilots.
Hiring at major airlines off the street started by 1998 by most airlines.

Fast forward to today.
There are major airlines bordering CH 7. Major airlines are still scheduled to furlough.(NW is recalling) The majority are in the 1000-1500++ on the street.
Now add in the regional airline factor where that is pretty much the only growth in the industry if you can call it "growth". Traditional major airlines are shrinking their seats domestically.

One thing that will factor into todays hirings is the big retirement numbers. But I think I read that the 60 rule amendment vote was by single digit votes to not raise the retirement age. This is election year so new opinions will be in Washington when it will be voted on again.

So to your original question about timeline. IF the industry follows the last cycle, it was in the timeline of 10 years. If we started the timeline from last cycle 2001/2002 and applied it to the start of the downturn now, your looking around 2011/2012 for the majors hiring of the street.

Of coarse that is not factoring in fuel, the retirement 60 age variable, who knows how much the traditional airlines will shrink. Plus there will be 90+ seat airplanes flying at USAir EXPRESS soon. In 2002, U mainline was flying 97 seat Fokkers. What airplane will that line in the sand be drawn.

During the failed merger attempt with USAir and United, United pilots kept asking "Career Expectations" for merging the senority list. Who would have thought United would be where they are today 4 years ago? My point is who really knows, and dont believe stuff on the internet as the holy grail.

Hope that clears things up.

 

[737 Pylt]

So far I am doing the CFI thing.. Then when I get my hours up go to a commuter, get some turbine time,,then what after then? What are they hour requirements for majors??How many years am i looking at

Do yourself a favor and get out while you can! This industry blows any more. Too many people willing to do your job for less $$. If you are still insistant on being a professional pilot (after having your head examined) plan on having a plan "A" and having your airline career as your plan "B"!
737

 

[llowwelll]

Just like 737Pylit said, I would seriously consider whether or not you really want to pursue this as a career. Flying is fun, and it'd be great to be able to do it as a career, but you can always do it on your own. There are certainly a lot of things out there that are arguably more important than flying (family, friends, financial security) and being an airline pilot isn't very friendly toward those things.

The airline pilot career is not what it used to be. I don't know that we will ever again see airline pilots making $300,000/yr. You will be lucky to max out at $150,000 after 10-15 yrs with an airline. I would not be surprised if those numbers decrease even further as airline pilots become more and more of a simple commodity. I know plenty of people in my neighborhood who make significantly more than that doing lots of other things. One guy works from home as a mortgage broker, another guy works independently in pharmaceutical sales, another guy is an exec for the software arm of a big company. They don't have to sit reserve and they are home pretty much every night and I also see them home frequently during the middle of the day. Things like that may not seem like a big deal to a young guy, but believe me, they become progressively more important the older you get.

A friend of mine during college wanted to become a dentist. I remember at the time thinking to myself rather pompously, "How boring! I'm gonna be a pilot and it'll be way better than being a dentist." Tell you what, that guy did his 3 or 4 yrs of dental school after college, worked with another dentist for a while after that, and has now had his own practice for several yrs. Today, he has a REALLY nice house in the nicest area, goes on vacation (Costa Rica was the last place) for a week or two every couple of months, and is essentially stress-free. Me? I'm stressing. Oh, and BTW, according to him, being a dentist isn't boring.

The airline business has been historically unstable. One airline exec was quoted as saying, "If God had intended airlines to succeed, he would have made them profitable." What that means to you is that you will never feel secure in your job and you very well will endure at least one furlough and/or liquidation. I read somewhere once that, on average, airline pilots are furloughed 2.5 times in their career. Think TWA, Pan Am, United, ATA, Eastern, Braniff, USAir, American among many, many others.

The cost (money, time, energy) to become an airline pilot is relatively high. This applies most directly to the question you asked. I'd say it compares with what a doctor goes through to become able to practice. It's a huge apprenticeship program. If you go military, that means 4 yrs of college, followed by about 1.5 yrs committed to pilot training, followed by a 10 yr active duty committment. You might get hired at that point. Or, if the industry is in shambles when it's your time to get out, you might have to sign for more committment or get out and become a Reserve/Guard "bum". The civilian route also seems difficult. I'm not as familiar with it, but it sounds like it is very expensive and requires you to scrape by on near-poverty level wages for at least several years. It might work out to be quicker than the military route by a couple of yrs. Whichever route you go, you will likely have to devote a large amount of money to the major airline job search (airline tickets, memberships, hotels, cars, interview suit, type rating(s), interview prep, convention tix, books, etc).

As an airline pilot, you are also in jeopardy of losing your medical. If a real estate agent, software developer, or banker develop a heart condition, they don't lose their job. You very well could.

Also, as an airline pilot, if you switch companies (whether by choice or otherwise), you start over from the bottom unless you're lucky enough to get a blended seniority list during a merger or buyout. I can't think of any other industry that requires that.

There are advantages to being an airline pilot. There's the view from 350, the absence of office politics, and doing something you may love or like. Do those pros outweigh the cons? I'd say it's something to think about very, very seriously before you embark on the journey.

As far as how many hrs are required, it all depends on the timing of the industry and the particular airline. The hrs that would have gotten somebody hired five yrs ago won't even get someone close to an interview today. If you're interested in particulars, go to the airline websites. Look for the "Careers" or "Work for Us" link and see what the airline requires. Typical mins are 2500 total time and 1000 PIC. Often, a significant portion of those times must be turbine time. Keep in mind that those are official mins. Competitive mins could be considerably higher.

 

[jijarwm]

WOW! DOOM AND GLOOM!

I'm not buyin' it.

Yes, this is a lousy industry. Yes, it can be a dissappointment.

But, if you REALLY want to be a pilot for a living, don't sit back and watch life go by doing something you hate.

I work in an office with dozens of engineers who all are envious that I even took the steps to pursue a flying career. And, I personally don't think I'd be that happy with myself if I just gave up because things are a little dark on the horizon.

I've been at this for almost 20 years now. The first time I soloed was in 1985. I still have never had a job at an airline, but I'm not giving up hope.

I got into the military after getting an engineering degree, then was forced to be a back-seater for several years. Then, I busted my hump to become a pilot, finally achieved that, and found out if I stayed in the military, I'd be sitting behind a desk doing Staff weenie jobs til I retired, most likely not current when I got out.

So, I told all my firends back in 2000-2001, my plan was to rack up as many hours as I could as a flight instructor, get a type-rating, and go to Southwest. They said I was an idiot for spending so much $$$ on a type-rating with so many airlines hiring.

I told them to mark my words, that someday the economy would turn around, and most airlines would furlough, but SWA would be fine.

Everyone found that out the hard way, especially me, since 9/11 happened too soon before I could get out and put my plan in motion.

I still pressed on, got out, and have since been once rejected from SWA, but I'm going to keep after it until they hire me or I just get too old. Maybe I'll get there next time, maybe it'll be on my 20th interview.

And, yes I have apps in everywhere else, too.

I sit in a cubicle 4-5 days a week doing govt contract work for not much $$. But, I have a military reserve flying job that keeps me current and helps with the bills.

The way I see it:

First, the hiring cycle didn't have that big of a gap, stb. I knew guys that got hired up until mid 1990, and as early as 1995. Big time hiring was happening in 1996 and 1997.

Second, the retirements are going to start fairly soon, and even a vote to change retirement age will only drive things to the right a couple of years.

Third, the economy and oil prices are what is driving the airlines in a bad spot now. Slow economies don't last forever.

Fourth, the airlines will get better when some of the weaker ones go away. PanAm and Eastern went away right after the market went south in the early 90's. Some of the weaker ones now are artificially sticking around a long time. I feel bad for those who are going to lose their jobs, but the airlines are a dog-eat-dog business.

I have a lot of friends who are giving up the flying biz to sell insurance, get law degrees, get MBAs and do something else. And, I think that might be a good idea for them. I just can't do that yet. If I think there's even the slightest chance that I can be a pilot for a living, I'm going to do it.

If MooneyPilot REALLY wants this, I don't think he should be discouraged from it.

My advice:
Join the military if you can. I instructed a number of students in the military who were all set to go to the regionals prior to 9/11. They all did great in flight school and moved on to fly some pretty amazing equipment.

Don't give up unless you think it's just too much of a pain. I guarantee you'll look back at your life and wonder, "If I'd only...." if you go to a non-flying career that you hate and wish you'd at least tried for a shot at flying. You only go around once....Amen

 

[CitationMan]

What airlines do you all see as being the one to get on with in the future, I mean the ones that will give you a secure and prosperous career? I think that in the future there will be only three airlines worth the time and effort to get on with, they are Southwest, FedEx and UPS. I believe that both FedEx and UPS will be the only two were you will be able to make both top dollar ( still in the $250K-300K range for senior captain when both of their new contracts are finished ) and have a secure defined benefit pension.

I'd like to hear you input as I'm currently flying a fairly decent corporate gig but I still have the dream of flying the big iron, but I have no desire to leave this job to get on with a regional or a LCC.

 

[llowwelll]

I would agree that being an airline pilot (assuming you like it) would be better than doing something you hate. The trouble with saying that is that it assumes you can only be happy as an airline pilot. If that is your case, then by all means, become an airline pilot. However, I can promise you that airline pilots do not have a lock on career satisfaction. There are lots of people out there who are satisfied doing other things. Not all of the people who do jobs other than flying are stuck grinding away all day every day in a cubicle. There are a huge variety of jobs out there. Surprisingly, even some people who do work in cubicles enjoy their jobs.

The only point I want to emphasize is that it is easy to fixate on the thrill, mystique, and glamour of flying (especially early on). There are elements of that to a flying career but they are often overshadowed by all of the stuff previously mentioned. I do know of some people who could only be happy flying but they are in the very small minority. A lot of pilots seem to think they would be happier doing something other than flying.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Steps? Fly everything you can get your hands on.

Timing? The call from the majors wil likely come just before the one from Ed McMahon or Paris Hilton.

Alternately, you could use a glacier as a sort of crude timepiece.

 

[Clyde]

So far I am doing the CFI thing.. Then when I get my hours up go to a commuter, get some turbine time,,then what after then? What are they hour requirements for majors??How many years am i looking at

Mooney,

In addition to the regionals, I would also investigate the cargo route. Part 135 non-scheduled carriers. i.e., Ameristar, USA Jet, Airnet (scheduled) etc. I went the 135 non-sched route and wound up at a major.

The flying is a lot more demanding, schedule is less than desireable, and on-call most of the time. However, you will gain a lot of good experience in a short amount of time, probably make a lot more money (I did 45K my second year and as a captain), and get to the left seat a lot quicker than most other places.

With that, I will put in this disclaimer: If you still choose to pursue the airlines as a career, I won't sit here and talk you out of it. Just keep in mind, the job that you would traditionally acquire to build hours, may be the place you end up retiring from. So, when you look to go somewhere shy of a major, you may want to ask two questions: 1: is this a place I CAN retire from, and 2: is this a place I would like to stay until I retire.

Personally, if I were starting out in aviation today, I wouldn't fly anywhere as a career unless it were in the military. Otherwise, I would find a career that would provide a high return on my education investment and take up flying as a hobby. Hope this helps, and just my $0.02.

 

[Ty Webb]

Alternately, you could use a glacier as a sort of crude timepiece.

You, sir, you are killing me.

 

[PastFastMover]

Mooney,

If you still choose to pursue the airlines as a career, I won't sit here and talk you out of it. Just keep in mind, the job that you would traditionally acquire to build hours, may be the place you end up retiring from. So, when you look to go somewhere shy of a major, you may want to ask two questions: 1: is this a place I CAN retire from, and 2: is this a place I would like to stay until I retire.

Personally, if I were starting out in aviation today, I wouldn't fly anywhere as a career unless it were in the military. Otherwise, I would find a career that would provide a high return on my education investment and take up flying as a hobby. Hope this helps, and just my $0.02.

Mooney,

Reread what Clyde wrote above very very carefully. He stated it exactly the way it is. It is currently a race to the bottem in this career. There is no thinning of the herd. The current BK'ed companies management are taking the employees pay and retirement to stay in biz a few more months, essentially burning the furniture to just keep going (I might add while keeping their huge salarys, bonuses, and guaranteed retirements in BK or out). The LCC's appear to be doing well, but the pilots are now in a job not a career, working for lower pay, crappy work rules, little or no retirement other than 401K , to simply be in a flying job. The commuter pilots are straining at the bit to fly the next bigger aircraft for peanuts, and many not realizing that that will only guarantee the lowering of the bar even further. Once the commuters fly these larger aircraft for peanuts, the majors will become International carriers only and get their feed from them. That step from flight instructing to commuters to majors just came to an abrupt end. I am currently at the end of my career and have advised my kids to go another direction. The results of airline deregulation that was forced through by the lawyers in 1978 is finally taking hold. Unfortunately an airline seat is now a commodity, the only careers in this industry are in management.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Another question would be what is your definition of a major? Also, will that major still be a major by the time you meet the quals? That's where a crystal ball comes in handy. Another potential reality is that the next generation (who knows how many years away) of commercial aircraft may only require one pilot.
While llowwelll is correct there are a bunch of jobs out there, and some people may actually enjoy them, I speculate most people work because they have to. It's not a vocation that they really enjoy. Try to find/do something that interest you - and is legal! - and hopefully the green will be there. If not, be your own bossman if possible.

 

[ATA73Pilot]

Run..don't walk to a different career.

Read, reread, and then read lowell's post a third time..hell..print it out and tack it to your desk.

Timing and luck mean everything in the career progression of an airline pilot. You can't plan your way to a successful career in the airline industry. You are at the mercy of factors you have no control over at all turns in your career.

I am now 41 and the thought of 20 more years of bag dragging, hotels, 0500 showtimes, red-eyes, 14-hour duty days, living in crashpads and commuting, angry, bitter, old FA's, myopic management, TSA manned security checkpoints, holidays away from home and family, little to no retirement, yadda, yadda, yadda, just fills me with a sense of dread.

Do I like flying airplanes...I love it....but the bulls&^t you have to endure just for the time behind the wheel becomes a huge negative when the shine wears off.

The future holds less pay, more work, career instability and less days off for a potential airline wanna-be.

I just have to look at the 50+ year old former Captains at USAirways that are now in the right seat enjoying significantly less money and decreased seniority benefits to realize I don't want to be in the same position.

Hell...my company will end up the same way if they are lucky....10 - 15 year Captains downgraded to FO's because this industry is beyond common sense in how it operates. I myself (along with potentially 700 others at ATA) am facing life on the street after almost 7 years here and the seniority to hold a Captain's slot on any of our airplanes.

Sorry for another negative viewpoint but I wish someone had told me this 20 years ago before I wasted my prime working years.

I know what you are feeling right now in your quest for the "big iron" but trust me when I tell you the price is far to high to pay for the chance that you might make a career out of it.

Playing the lottery has better odds....

Good Luck in your choice.

 

[Ty Webb]

Mooney,

The LCC's appear to be doing well, but the pilots are now in a job not a career, working for lower pay, crappy work rules, little or no retirement other than 401K , to simply be in a flying job.

Kind of hard to take the rest of your post seriously when you include garbage like this.

My LCC contributes 10.5% of my gross earnings into a "B" Fund that I administer. Add in a three year upgrade to the left seat and 12 year pay that is pretty much the same as the 12 year pay at most "Legacy" carriers, and it is hardly the bleak existence you describe.

True. it's not "your Father's airline job" but few things are. $150K is still a pretty good living, unless you live in SFO or some other place that costs twice as much as the rest of the country. If that is your desire, well, then you probably do need to be in another line of work, because that $300K/yr may not be attainable in this industry unless the pilots all get together, which just reading this board will pretty much rule that possibility out.

 

[PastFastMover]

Ty,

My post was not meant to denigrate the LCC's. I hope you have a great "job" working for whoever you work for. I have flown for more than a couple of majors (flying left seat for all of them) since way before deregulation and have seen literally scores of LCC's that are the Queen of the moment turn into the turd of the hour. 3 years to left seat to me means your company has not been around for long. I hope I am not being presumptuous, but you sound young and relatively new. I truely hope your current carrier hangs in there and you remain till retirement. I personally, looking back on the experience, would not put my life at the whim of the MBA of the hour. Things really look different the older you get, and your company of the hour disappears and you start over again. I suppose 150 grand sounds like great pay to the youngsters, but in the world today that is chump change for someone that is looking for a great career. I agree that the 300K career in this industry is gone, the 150K job will only go lower the way things are currently going.

I love to fly, it has been my passion. From J3 Cubs, to Supersonic Fighters to B-777's, I have seen the best of what this industry has to offer and also the worst as poor management takes your once great company down. I hope that you don't have to continually start over and over and over. I would say the odds are truely against you. If you don't want to take the rest of my post seriously then don't. But I think I have put in the time to give my opinion of the industry. I have only posted on this forum a limited number of times. I have absolutely no interest in debating anyone or challenging anyone in the back and forth that some folks seems to relish.

Good luck.

 

[Fokkerflyer]

Hey Mooney-

Ever consider a career as a corporate pilot?

I would say the process from cfi to corporate jet is still 5 yrs., sometimes longer, but can be very rewarding. Start banging on doors, try to get rides in turboprops, whatever it takes. I used to work at a flt school where all the instructors were very focused on the airlines. I was pumping fuel at that time also. Long story short, got a corporate job, and by the time they got on with a commuter I was working on my third type rating.

Maybe corporate is not as glamorous as airline life, to me it's been very rewarding.

Hope this helps,
FF

 

[CitrusGuy]

Dude, trust me. There is plenty more "glamour" driving the limo than driving the bus. I don't see any "glamour" in what I'm doing but I enjoy it. It's a fun job but I wouldn't recomend it as a career to my children. (I would hang pictures of teeth on their walls...

 

[AA717driver]

Ok, one more time...

If all you've ever wanted to do is fly, go for it. Just realize what the downside is.

If you are in it for a cushy job that pays big bucks and is glamorous, you may want to work somewhere else.

BTW, other than med school/dental school, what business pays $100k/year and works you 15 days a month?

Jobs in aviation aren't quite a $h!tty as many here make it out to be. It just isn't what it used to be. JMO.TC

 

[flyfastinmy10]

Hey Mooney-

Ever consider a career as a corporate pilot?

I would say the process from cfi to corporate jet is still 5 yrs., sometimes longer, but can be very rewarding. Start banging on doors, try to get rides in turboprops, whatever it takes. I used to work at a flt school where all the instructors were very focused on the airlines. I was pumping fuel at that time also. Long story short, got a corporate job, and by the time they got on with a commuter I was working on my third type rating.

Maybe corporate is not as glamorous as airline life, to me it's been very rewarding.

Hope this helps,
FF

Mooney

The pilot career is almost like an internal calling. Right now this business sucks but there are still more that want in than jobs available.
I worked the office thing for years and reflect on it often. This time of year after the clocks change I still get depresssed remembering looking out the window at work until 9 or 10 pm every evening. I worked my azz off trying to get ahead. I have missed so many important things in my life that I regret. I finally gave up on getting ahead or winning in the business world. I would dream of being off on weekends or even a coulpe of days in a row.
I finally left my six figure income about 5 years ago. I was lucky to get hired by a small corporate jet charter company with less than a thousand hours. It was a good fit for both parties. I wanted to fly and have more time off and they wanted someone that would be available 24/7/365. I started working about 15 days a month. I upgraded about a year later and during the next 5 years got 2 types, lots of hours and was treated very well.
I recently went to work for a major, again looking for a better schedule. I plan on staying here until I retire. If this doesn't work out I will go back to the Corporate thing. I will not chase the Airline career because I can't do it. I can't take the pay cuts and start over and over. I hate reserve and now have a line but this is it. I wouldn't do it again. The airline thing.
My advice to you........Try the corporate charter job. Stay with it untill you have other options and then make a decision and good luck.
I hear everyone on this board talking about how good other professions are but the grass always looks greener. I personally don't know anyone that is truely happy with their career.
Good luck and if you have any questions on how I did it, send me a PM